Effective children's coaching, with Peter Sturgess

Peter Sturgess (: 00:00

Because I'm thinking, look at the energy that they're bringing into the sports hall or onto the pitch. I've got to make sure that I keep that going and I keep that engagement. I keep that

that drive to want to play, I need to make sure that I don't sit on that and just squash it. And often during my planning, I'll be thinking, you know, if I was a kid playing in this game, would I enjoy it? And if the answer is no, I have to go back to the drawing board.

Mark Carroll (: 00:32

Hi everyone, welcome to the show. In today's episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Peter Sturges. Now, Peter was head of the Foundation Pathway within English FA for well over a decade. His experience within grassroots sport and also academy sport, but importantly, and this is part of the conversation today, was within children's sport coaching. Being a football guy,

that is highly relevant, but also anyone who coaches, you know, young kids, maybe between the ages of six and 11, 12, really should tune in. We talk a lot about the importance of small side of games, but beyond the cliches and actually tuning into some of the pedagogical elements to it that sometimes you overlook. And a lot of the stuff that we speak about is about the tensions and not just blindly following some of the rhetoric around just let them play. where the structure come into that still.

thinking about, well, we need to challenge them, but where does support come into that still? We look at the differences between the children's game and adult game as a means of really trying to sell Peter's argument that we need to take advantage of all the fantastic elements of the children's game that we need to nurture and care for during the window which exists. I that's a window of opportunity for children to develop through the children's game and not rush them towards trying to show some

representation of the adult game that's separate from where they're at in their journey, both as a player and holistically speaking as a young kid and we speak a little bit around that as well. So it's a fantastic conversation and I really hope that you'll enjoy it. So let's get into it.

Mark Carroll (: 02:29

So Peter, it's great to see you, how are you? It's brilliant having you on.

Peter Sturgess (: 02:33

Yeah, long time no see. I think the last time we were up in Scotland together, so it's nice to reconnect. But thanks for inviting me on.

Mark Carroll (: 02:40

Yeah,

yeah, and that was definitely, I think, the inspiration for trying to get in touch with you again, because obviously, yeah, you came and seen the SFA, the Scottish FA, and then a bit of a coach education session there, and some of the stuff that you were talking about, specifically in the context of working with children, was really important, really insightful, and this is, I suppose, why we really, I think it's an important conversation to have, because oftentimes we don't really.

contextualize the children's game enough. So maybe that brings us on to the first question I have just to cut this off. What makes the children's game, the children's game, what separates it from the other games, the adult games? know, we can speak about this in football or to be honest, we can scale this out to wider sport, youth coaching. So yeah, what's your thoughts there to start?

Peter Sturgess (: 03:25

Yeah, I think that the thing for us to consider as adults who are generally the providers of what sport looks like for our young children, we just have to make sure that the children fit, the game fits the children, not the children fit the game. And the reason I say that is that if we have an appropriate scaling of the game, if we look at football for the young children,

it shouldn't and mustn't look like the adult game too early because the children are not obviously adults. And I know this is, it's a well-known phrase that they're, they're adult, they're children, not adults. And so if we appropriately scale the game of football down and provide it in smaller formats with less decisions, less interference going on, then the children can enjoy the essence of the game.

without it yet looking like the adult game that we're pushing them towards. So I think that making the game fit the child is the most important thing for me.

Mark Carroll (: 04:25

Mmm.

And see on that then, is that eye sometimes deceiving then? Because you could, if we were to compare what you see Man City do in the senior game, okay, week in, week out, where there's a lot of fluid passing, there's less touches on the ball, there's slow build up play. It's interesting because sometimes where I see people want to replicate that in the children's game, what actually they invariably do is they miss out on potential opportunities for technical development that could have.

happened through a more messy context of you know actually is it better for a kid to take more touches because it's probably more often than not that it's the last opportunity in their life that they have to dribble more than pass is it that sort of thing because it in terms of how we look at the game on a weekend what's the difference?

Peter Sturgess (: 05:04

Yeah.

Yeah,

it is. I think we do get drawn into, well, this is the game that we're pushing them towards with the formations, the tactics, the strategies that we see in the Premier League or, you know, in the Scottish leagues. That's the game that we're pushing them towards. But the journey has to look appropriate for where the children are developmentally.

If I had a pound for every time I go and watch a small number format and hear the coaches shouting pass it, it's because they want that, they want it to look like the adult game. But for the children, being in contact with the ball is probably the most exciting bit for each player. So my approach would be reduce the numbers. And the research tells us that in 3v3,

there are a lot more individual technical actions on the ball. And as soon as the numbers get bigger, the emphasis is upon team shape and more about balancing the team off with your positional play. Well, when you're six, seven, eight, nine years of age, that balancing off and that positional play is not the most important thing that we need to develop. It is time on the ball and it's

during that time on the ball, that's when you begin to develop your decision making as to whether in the current situation that you're in, is it is a good solution going to come from you with the ball and what you can do with the ball or is it a solution where you share it with a teammate and then you begin to develop the game towards what the adult format of the game looks like. But if we miss out that important connection with the ball.

then the whole thing begins to fall down. For me, the adult game should be built upon the technical ability of each individual player. And that can start really early by making sure every young player has an incredible, exciting time on the ball.

Mark Carroll (: 07:10

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it's interesting you say that I mean, there was even work I think I think those work is fairly dated now, but I think there was research committee university stolen that was comparing the game formats and influence on different actions. And it wasn't even just that there was more touches, but direction of passes was influenced like there was more forward passing, you know, things that like what you actually want to encourage. And there's I mean, there's recent work that's actually come out of us with one of our M res students not too long ago.

sports scientist actually, Ross McClelland, who's done some work within St. Mary's Academy. And he was comparing, bear in mind, I think some of the summit was also around placing players according to biological development, but there was an element of the small side of the game thrown out in the midst. And it wasn't just found that it had an influence on technical actions, but also on psychological, like psychosocial actions in terms of more leadership being shown across.

each team member and stuff like that. So it's like the midst of experiences, isn't it, to a point?

Peter Sturgess (: 08:24

Yeah.

Yeah,

a really good example I can give you, Mark, is that when we introduced our play phase, which is for players aged five, six, or four, five and six, right at the beginning of their development journey into sport and being physically active, strongly suggested that the format that these children play is 2v2. And it's a great example because

We know that the ball is going to go out of play a lot when you're five, six years of age. But when the ball does go out of play, you get four players all running to go and get it. And that tells me these children just want to have contact and have a, you know, have a kick of the ball, have a touch of the ball, be involved and be near the ball. And that's what we have to feed when they're very, very young.

Because if you've got four children running after the ball when it goes out to play, they are highly motivated to get a contact and a touch on that ball. For me, let's feed it. And that doesn't stop when they become seven, eight and nine years of age. It's exactly the same. And it's also the perfect time for that individual skill development. But alongside it, we can begin to help the children understand

Mark Carroll (: 09:26

you

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 09:44

what critical decisions can be made when you are having more time on the ball. So that notion of, I'm going to share it or no, I'm not, then we can work with the players on that, but not in 10 minutes. We can take 10 years over that. And when they're teenagers, we'll have had some really productive time with them on the ball, but also linking those important decisions that go with being on the ball for a lot longer.

So for me, that's the kind of journey and the kind of timeline that we need to take our children on.

Mark Carroll (: 10:13

Hmm

Hmm does that so there's three parts that actually I want to come back to then so when you mention around you know that they don't scamper for the ball and it goes out to play is that anything to do with just the fact that contact on the ball sort of breeds confidence through the fact that like so in a larger game format if you only touch the ball two or three times there's a lot riding on what you do with the ball in those moments and it's impacting your confidence but if it's a smaller game format then you know

you might still make mistakes, but probably in terms of just the probabilities across that space of time that you have in the park, you're gonna also do a lot more good as well. like, does it help probably with confidence, I would think in that sense overall, so they then want to go and take it.

Peter Sturgess (: 10:58

I think so.

Yeah, I know with younger players, there's an idea that if they're working hard, so running around, you know, being energetic, trying to get the ball, they will feel as though they're having a great game, whether what they do on the ball is actually productive or not. But I think we can bring the two things together.

If the children come with lots of energy, lots of motivation and drive to be involved, giving them a ball and putting them in a format where they are touching the ball quite regularly, I think that feeds that kind of sense of competence because the worst thing for a young player being introduced to the game of football is that they feel on the periphery or they don't feel as though they're involved at all.

then why would they select that longer term as a sport to continue with, you know, into their later years? So I think that first engagement with sports and being physically active has to be so positive and so memorable that they just want to keep coming back for the great way that it makes them feel. And I think that is possible.

Mark Carroll (: 12:10

Do you think coaches think enough about the needs to what you said there about sense of competence? Because I always think with coaching that we're always looking towards what they need to develop competence, competence rather, but we don't ever think, sometimes I think we can be forgetful of the need to make them feel competent already as part of that. So like when you mentioned that about caring about their sense of competence, and we know that's actually important from a motivational perspective, doing things longer term. If you don't feel you're getting better at it, that's not, it's a real

Peter Sturgess (: 12:29

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 12:39

impediments sometimes to further persistence and stuff like that. So where are we in that respect? Because I think we are focused a lot on future growth, but do we forget about the here and now and the experience and the feelings of now sometimes with children?

Peter Sturgess (: 12:52

Yeah, I think one of the most important things that I'm very conscious of when I meet, because with a lot of the CPD events that I'll do, I am actually meeting the players for the first time. So it's actually really difficult to build a connection quickly that is going to be really meaningful and deep. But I think one of the focuses and one of the important things that I

always think about is making every player feel a valuable part of what we're doing and it doesn't always and it shouldn't always be based upon what they can do with the ball. I because I've had lots of experience with very young children quite often I'll get a young child tugging at my sleeve saying Pete I can't do this and it that that's a barrier straight away so I think coaches

Mark Carroll (: 13:28

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 13:44

of young children should have a toolbox of activities where they can dial it up or dial it down so that every child can feel as though they're having some kind of success. The important thing for me then is to notice when that success happens and then I'm all over it like a rash, you know, and I'm saying to the child you can do it, I've just seen it, you know, so show me again or show your friend and get your friend to copy what you've just done because that was really good.

Mark Carroll (: 13:56

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 14:14

And I think the

whole environment that wraps around this kind of approach is as important as the activities that you're actually getting the children to do. So if they know that they are not being judged, they have got my total support and I want them to be active agents within what happens within the sessions, I think that sense of belonging is a lot easier to engender and to foster and then to promote.

Mark Carroll (: 14:23

Hmm.

And what I come that word that belongs again that's just then starting to talk about relatedness to and this goes along the side they need to feel confident you want to feel connected to the environment and and Oftentimes your sense of competence will influence the extent to which you feel you belong as well So like these things go together don't I was going to ask there actually so With that intention in mind to make all the kids feel like they can contribute in their own way Is that maybe an element there around making sure that we have a mix of

Peter Sturgess (: 14:55

Absolutely. Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 15:11

different types of exercises in the midst of different types of challenges that we set that perhaps cater in different ways across a group of players because not everyone's going to be great at crossing the ball, not everyone's going be good at dribbling. So if we only do exercises that further accentuate that component of the game, well yes, can still, again, it's that sort of deficit view versus a positive outlook. If coaching is seen all the time, we need to fix things. A coach is only ever what to do to things that we see players not being great at, but we need to also have room for the stuff they're good at.

Isn't it? Is that you don't need to make it hard all the time.

Peter Sturgess (: 15:43

Yeah, we're having discussions with coaches now about rather than having a topic based approach. So instead of saying, right, the topic tonight is, I don't know, crossing from wide areas or something, you know, like you've said, I might be a player in that group thinking I'm not good at crossing from wide areas. My teammate might be thinking, this is great. This is exactly the kind of practice I want. If you change it to say, right, tonight,

The outcome is we're going to try to score more goals. So we leave it as broadly open as possible. So I'm a dribbler. I'll be immediately I'll be thinking, well, I can score more goals by using my dribbling. My teammates who's great to cross it, he was think he'll be thinking, well, if I'm in wide areas, I can help us score more goals by crossing the ball. My other teammates thinking I prefer to pass and receive and be the glue that joins everything together.

I'm going to help us score more goals by doing that. So everybody can contribute. But what you also do, you give the players the opportunity to explore all of the different ways that goals can be scored. And then we can all contribute in our own different way. But it also gives you the opportunity, Mark, to actually say to somebody, if you want to say one of my teammates...

Mark Carroll (: 16:53

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 17:05

is trying to help us score more goals by dribbling but it's not actually working for him and it's know he's losing the ball or whatever. You can still have the conversation to say look if you want to help us score more goals by dribbling then we need to help you get better at this and this and this. You're already good at that so we'll add something to that and then you can help us score goals using the way that you're really good at but also we'll develop some other ways that you can do it as well.

Mark Carroll (: 17:22

Hmm.

you

Peter Sturgess (: 17:32

So

it's not all sweetness and light. know, if players are trying things that they're not, it's not working, then if they want to develop that as a solution to scoring more goals, then that's where the practice comes in. And that's where they spend their time and give some energy to develop in those areas. So I think having that broader focus about what are the solutions we can explore to score more goals.

Mark Carroll (: 17:47

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 18:01

I think

that really, that hits the kids in a much better way than saying, we're going to score from wide areas or whatever. I just like that possibility thinking.

Mark Carroll (: 18:13

It's a sensible approach I find because outcomes are experienced individually anyway. So you have a themed session, we speak about this as well sometimes, but if you've not got the ball as much as the rest of the team, it doesn't matter if the session's on passing, your session's on defending because the outcomes are experienced individually. I actually really like that approach. As much as you say it's not about being all rosy, and it isn't, but it is, you are starting from a more optimistic base point when you start to consider, like, here's what you're already good at.

So now we've already showed them that there's a means through which they can be successful, but now it's the building on their success, building what they already do well as opposed to always stripping it back to starting from where they struggle because that's a hurdle to climb over, if not technically, but psychologically in terms of how the kid's approaching that environment then, isn't it?

Peter Sturgess (: 19:00

Yeah, yeah. And I think for too often, Mark, our young children particularly, because it happens in school because of the way that the educational system works, they are constantly being assessed. They are constantly being judged. They are constantly, you know, being measured against others. And I just want kids to feel when they come to football, there is less judgment. There is no assessment. I feel valued. I feel...

a real sense of belonging and the coach works with me in such a way that I feel as though I can either now or eventually achieve all the things that I want to achieve on a football pitch. And I just think that's such a great starting place, certainly with young players. But when I was head coach of the England futsal squad, it was the same approach because the environment that we created with the team had to be one where

we released the potential that the players had and we brought them together so that, you know, as a team we really strive to be the best that we could be. And I don't think you get that from shouting at people, from calling them out, from embarrassing them, from humiliating them. I think it comes from that real sense of belonging.

Mark Carroll (: 20:08

Hmm.

How do we manage the tension of trying to create an environment where normative comparison, at least in the way that we are projecting it to the players, is achieved whilst still being appreciative and cognizant of the fact that the players are doing naturally still compare themselves to other people. like that, you could always think sometimes, can it go wrong sometimes where we try to completely suppress the idea of there being any competitive element?

Peter Sturgess (: 20:37

Ahem.

Mark Carroll (: 20:47

when we know actually maybe that kid that's really anxious and does care about the outcome can maybe feel that you're neglecting them and what they care about by suppressing all the time what they're showing you if not explicitly, they're implicitly through their behavior about what matters in that moment too because I always wonder about that and that's where things then, how do we manage that tension? What's your experience been around that?

Peter Sturgess (: 21:11

I think it's a long process, but I think if children feel valued, then for me that's the first step. And if they feel as though they belong to the group and they have a contribution that they can make to the group, then I think that's the starting point. I know I've worked with some children who, with a football at their feet,

They are not at the point where they can make a valuable contribution to the team yet or to the way that we play. But I have seen children who, if a team mate needs help or they're injured, they're the first one to go over and ask them if they're all right. If the things need collecting at the end of the session or some things need setting up, they're always saying, can I help you? So they've got personal qualities that if the football bit is not quite there yet,

they can still make a valuable contribution to what we're trying to achieve with their personal qualities about being kind, being considerate, being a great teammate. And I can't tell you the number of times I've said to a child, do you know what? If I was picking a team, you'd be the first pick on my team because you're this, this and this. But it may not be about their dribbling skills or their passing skills. It's about everything that wraps around it.

But if you've got those and I can help develop the football bit, crikey, we've got a real great person to be in our team. So I think we have to work that way with our children so that they're not defined solely on what they can do with a ball at their feet. Because for a lot, they're going to reach a glass ceiling and suddenly what they can do with the ball at their feet is now not the most important thing.

Mark Carroll (: 22:50

Mm, see.

Peter Sturgess (: 22:59

It's all those personal qualities that are going to get them over those speed bumps to development where they have to dig deep, they have to be a bit more resilient. Well, hopefully these children will have built those things up and then it's there within them when they need it.

Mark Carroll (: 23:16

So it's kind of latching on to the wider values a little bit more and not always thinking that the coach's role is about, it's not always about sport specific teaching, isn't it? No, this is getting into that conversation a little bit.

Peter Sturgess (: 23:18

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

we had this conversation with scouts and when they're trying to identify the best player on the pitch, it will pretty much always be what they do with the ball at their feet. But for me, they need to know how resilient the player is. Have you seen them in a number of games where they've won some, how do they react and how do they behave? Have you seen them when they've been absolutely cained and lost heavily? Have you seen how they react then?

because those are the important personal characteristics that I think will get them to the top if they've got that internal drive to be successful, as well as obviously what they can do on the ball. So we have to put those two things together when we're considering, you know, who is the best player on the pitch.

Mark Carroll (: 24:17

And this is probably also extend beyond just thinking about a pathway journey towards performance. is also like, obviously your work in the past has been in the foundation phase which goes across academies but also the grassroots space. But we're trying to prepare kids for life or doing high school. So they could go in lots of different directions couldn't they? So there's a benefit there too for that reason as well.

Peter Sturgess (: 24:42

Absolutely, and I think, I think I, when I'm working with a group, I teach football, but I also teach about how to behave, how to win, lose with respect, dignity and sportsmanship. I think those are those wider, you know, lessons that we must embrace, particularly when the children are young, and hopefully when they're older, we are just reinforcing them.

and reestablish them if they've just gone a little bit awry. And I think that's such an important role for the coach of young children.

Mark Carroll (: 25:17

Something always kind of struck me, Peter, and this comes back even when I've heard you speak before, is you have quite a keen sort of consideration for the developmental stages that a kid's in. And again, the reason I'm going to touch on this now is that we're kind of speaking a little bit to the wider stuff. It's not always just thinking about the technical development and where they're at there, but their emotional development, where their brains are developing, these elements are all contributing to what you see.

on the weekend and perhaps they also should offer a compass to how you should appraise what you see at any one interval and even as you're trying to push them towards the next phase, the next stage, whatever, we have to always be conscious of where they're at in the terms of the stuff they can't control. Like, I can't control their emotions if you consider the way the brain's made up at a certain age and the way that we can't, we adults don't control our emotions, so we then put these expectations on them. the reason I wanted to ask you about that is that...

Peter Sturgess (: 26:04

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 26:13

How do we then balance that out with sometimes there's just this is where I think some coaches take a little and then maybe they aren't they aren't considerate of realities of trying to apply that in practice. So we say coaches you know what we need to value a kid's temperament, their character. That's true but is it actually fair to sort of lambast a kid if they maybe show a lack of control at eight years old on a park? Now you're trying to do the right thing by telling them to control emotions and this and that but there is always that element.

there's some aspects that is outside of their control yet we can encourage it but we can't always control it and therefore we have to be careful about how we actually react then to when they fall beneath an expectation that maybe I set too high.

Peter Sturgess (: 26:48

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a... excuse me, Mark. We'll edit that bit out. There's a saying for early years specialists where they talk about children. They say, some children ask for love in the most unloving way. And I think sometimes the child's behavior is purely because they can't...

Mark Carroll (: 27:00

No, no, no,

Ha, that's time here.

Peter Sturgess (: 27:23

regulate their emotions and the emotion comes and takes over them so quickly and they haven't yet developed the kind of self-regulation in order to spot it coming, put something in place and then be able to deal with it so that you don't get the emotional outbursts. So, but I think that's part of our role as well, but it's not that the child is a naughty child or a bad child, it's just that...

you haven't developed those regulatory systems yet. And I think if we empathize with them, if we acknowledge the fact that this is difficult and longer term, that kind of emotional outburst may not be the most effective way of dealing with this current situation. Let's look for an alternative. I think that's part of our job. But I think if you go into the coaching of young children thinking, I know all about 442, I know all about, you know,

possession in the final third, I think you're missing the point. I think a really good children's enjoys the company of children and enjoys being around them, understands them and that alludes to what we were just talking about Mark, their developmental states, what they might be able to do but what they certainly can't do at the moment. I think they need to understand them and I think

they also need to have methods to try to get the best out of the children. And I think if you enjoy their company, you take some time to try and understand developmentally where they're at, and then you become skilled at getting the best out of them, I think the kids will have a great time with you as their coach.

Mark Carroll (: 28:50

Hmm.

Hmm, do you know what I think through the powerful that it sounds like? Like I think what you've you've made a nice comparison there between The usual view which is are the children meeting the standards of my practice I actually think this is almost like a reverse now of as my practice meeting the standards of children because that's a different way of viewing things Because it's almost like and I never l into my journey as a coach

Peter Sturgess (: 29:08

Cough

You

Mark Carroll (: 29:31

I used to get really wound up if kids were chatting during my training session or this and that. And I was actually took a more experienced coach at the time to tell me, of course the other kids, their wains are sitting in a queue. And so it took a reflection for me to go, the reason why they were chatting away was because I had them in big long lines. Also they're just wains and they want it. And actually that social element could be what keeps them coming because that's important to them. And it's like, well, I need to adjust my practice to suit them in this.

Peter Sturgess (: 29:39

You

Mark Carroll (: 29:59

I mean, that's coming out to me, it resonates so much because I think that's a whole, it's a flippin' of expectations and also perhaps it's a flippin' of what coaches need to actually up-still on. Because being a children's coach is a very specific still set. It's a very specific, I mean, I've got a wee bit of bias here working in children's game, but some of the best coaches around are children's coaches because of that reason perhaps. Do they have to ignore everything else?

Peter Sturgess (: 30:10

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think your personality is important. But I think that personality, if you link it to really enjoying the company of children, I think I come alive when a group of kids runs through the door. Because I'm thinking, look at the energy that they're bringing into the sports hall or onto the pitch. I've got to make sure that I keep that going and I keep that engagement. I keep that

that drive to want to play, I need to make sure that I don't sit on that and just squash it. And often during my planning, I'll be thinking, you know, if I was a kid playing in this game, would I enjoy it? And if the answer is no, I have to go back to the drawing board. I also think if I was a player in this game, how would I cheat? How would I try to pull one over the coach?

Mark Carroll (: 31:12

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 31:19

And I didn't want to be a coach that's saying, stop doing that, you're spoiling my session. What I wanted to be was a coach that says, if they do this, I've already got the next thing that will take them away from that. So that I'll lead them down a different path. But I think it's also a big leap of faith, Mark, if the coach then begins to bring the children into what the session looks like or where it might be taken. I've done this and I think it's

Mark Carroll (: 31:33

Mm-hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 31:46

It's a really scary thing to do because you know what kids are like that some of their suggestions are off the wall. But I think this is also sending out that strong sense of value because if I value you, if you've got any ideas, I want the group to benefit from it. I want to hear them. I want to listen to them. And then I want to bring them into what our sessions look like.

Mark Carroll (: 32:11

Mm-hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 32:11

But I also know

that it's a really scary place if you're an inexperienced coach or you're not at that point yet where you're willing to give that kind of ownership and choice. But I think sometimes it's nice to just go out your comfort zone. But I think, sorry Mark, I think you have to bring the children to a point where they can accept responsibility in the right way in inverted commas.

Mark Carroll (: 32:21

Hmm.

Hmm. And yeah.

you

Peter Sturgess (: 32:38

I think if you have a new group and you say, right kids, what do you want to do tonight? I think it would be chaos because you'd have so many different suggestions. So over the weeks and months that you're working with them, give them slightly more responsibility and ownership over the things that you think they can already cope with. And then you get them to a point where you can begin utilizing their ideas.

Mark Carroll (: 32:45

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 33:04

getting them to shape what the session looks like or where it goes from here. And I think that's a really important motivational aspect that will get the kids coming back because it becomes about them, not about me.

Mark Carroll (: 33:20

Is there any specific tips then that we give? How do we provide that sense of autonomy then beyond choose which exercises? Obviously there's going be more subtler behaviors here. So what would you maybe do within a practice that maybe it's part of incrementally increasing their independence or even once they get to that point where you fully feel they can be immersed in it and have that autonomy or that input? What's some of the things beyond exercise selection? What other ways, other ways you've found helpful?

Peter Sturgess (: 33:46

I think if you've got an activity and it's going well, asking the players, how could we make this more difficult? Or what would we have to do to provide a bigger challenge? And it might be as simple as the kids saying, we could make the area smaller. And then my response would be, shall we try it? And then...

What it then does, it gives you the opportunity to have a dialogue with the players about, we had success in a bigger area, but when it becomes smaller, that might affect our decision making and how quickly we do things. So that's an important thing for when we're playing at the weekend, because there's going to be times when we've got a lot of space, but there's also going to be times when it's really tight and pressurized. So actually, that's a great idea. So shall we practice that now?

But I would also say to them, what might be the levels of success or the expected levels of success if we make it smaller? So when we were having a lot of success on a bigger pitch, that was great. Do you think the levels of success will be as high when we're playing on a smaller pitch? And then I might say, if we can keep possession for, I don't know, five, six, seven passes once in the next 10 minutes,

that will be real success because we've made the pitch small. So you can almost manage the players' expectations because I don't want them to feel, we've suddenly become poor players because we're not keeping the ball as well as we did in the larger area. So I love those conversations with the players because it just explores the whole game.

Mark Carroll (: 35:28

You know what's brilliant about that last point you made is particularly, does that kind of help them become more aware of the micro victories? Because I'm thinking you've changed the expectations and you're then asked in name to change their expectations of what success looks like. Now in a more one dimensional view of it, where the ball either goes in the net or it doesn't, success is very, it's more fragile. And again, a sense of competence is more fragile. But if you've manipulated and you've constrained the environment in such a way that.

you're then given an appointment on name to change their expectation and actually put training name on how they change their expectations. That must serve a real benefit to how they then view challenges in a way that's again unconscious probably in the way that is actually exhibited after that point. But does that feed into that? I wonder like that's quite interesting.

Peter Sturgess (: 36:15

I think so. And it's, I think it's a really great way to work once you've taken that leap of faith to begin to involve the players in what training actually looks like, you know, and I think it goes back to my time in grassroots when I worked with my son's team from under nines right through to under sixteens. And we pretty much kept the same group of players. We obviously added more as the numbers got bigger, but we kept them

pretty much all the way through. And it was because right at the beginning, we had the discussion about what kind of team do we want to be? And then that dictated the training, it dictated the decisions, it dictated the kind of conversations we had. But it was a real, it was like the golden thread that ran through everything that we did. And if we wanted to be this kind of team, what have we got to be good at? And what does that mean for you? And what does that mean for you? And what's your contribution?

And I just think it was a great way of saying, this is not my team, this is your team. You know, because we've given you the opportunity for you to dictate what it looks like.

Mark Carroll (: 37:17

Hmm.

So I wonder if that, see what you're saying there about when you manipulate the environment and then you seem to put it back on the reaction at an individual level. I wonder, at the very start of this conversation we spoke about the differences between the children's game and the adults game. I'm quite interested to know your view, Peter. Are you coaching a team in children's football or are you coaching individuals within a team? Because it seems like everything you're saying is moving towards the individual. And I wonder if that's a good distinction.

Peter Sturgess (: 37:50

Yeah, I think this is a really like interesting point because of the way that football in this country is structured and how it's delivered. Because I would really want to work with the individuals towards becoming small number teams, medium number teams and then larger number teams. But because

from the age of under seven, certainly in England, you train and hopefully you meet individual needs. But every weekend at 10 o'clock, there is one match where everything depends on it. Everything comes down to the result. you're in a team environment, whereas the children are at the point in their development where for me it should be more about the individual.

So I think the way we've structured things needs a really close look at. And also, and this is that crusade I'm on at the moment, Mark, for most grassroots coaches, and this is not a slight on grassroots coaches because it happens in the academies as well, if you're playing five a side at the weekends and that's your match, you will inevitably have a squad of about eight, nine, maybe 10 players.

My bugbear at the moment and the crusade I'm on is the fact that we're already planning for three, four or five children not to play every week. How can that be a way to engage children, motivate children, make them feel valued and belonging, all of the things that we've spoken about previously in this podcast, Mark. How can we possibly do that when kids are, we've got a system that actually says,

plan for four or five kids not to play. I would like, when we talked about appropriate scaling of the game and serving it up in the most appropriate way, I would like the formats to be small enough so that if a child chooses football, every weekend they get a full game. So every child, every weekend gets a full game. I think it's possible, but not within the current way that we've structured it.

Mark Carroll (: 39:41

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Well, seeing you say that, like, part of this conversation, I think, often happens when a team travels for a game and they've got a game. They tend, in some ways, it's always about, we have enough coaches per match? So like, sometimes that's why, right, maybe you've got 14 players and they play seven, you split them in half. But again, what we're doing there is we're limiting how small the game format can be based on our ability as a team of two to cover that. this is maybe a question of,

Peter Sturgess (: 40:26

Cough

Mark Carroll (: 40:35

Why do we need to be able to cover and see everything at all times? If we know that what's best is for them to play and we are there to facilitate, why do they need, why are we getting so caught up in the micro oversight of things? Is that maybe a little bit what you're saying?

Peter Sturgess (: 40:48

Absolutely, and we just spent five, 10 minutes talking about ownership, choice, and really helping the children become confident individuals. We, on our play phase pilots, we had six year old children and five year old children who were managing a game of 2v2 themselves.

They didn't need the adults to make the decisions. If there were any clash, you know, any pinch points, then we're always there to help. actually dealing with conflict and negotiating at a high level, the children would be doing that or learning how to do that within a sporting environment. We didn't need those games to be micromanaged. You started off at under six.

By the time they're 14, 15, 16, they are in a much better place to manage the game and what's going on in the game. But they'll never reach that point if we don't give them the chance. I think we can start that off with six-year-old children. In fact, we are.

Mark Carroll (: 41:51

you

Yeah, mean, think back to, I suppose we need to look at it as well, isn't it? If you think back to like a playground when you're in primary school, the teachers weren't there when you were playing with your mates. And yes, there was like arguments and stuff, but there was a sort of self-policing to a point where the ball has to get back in play soon. don't want to, know, ultimately we just need to on with certain things. And again, what we're wanting to teach players that how to deal with is different.

maybe on tactical side of it or maybe on the situational side of it when you're playing against a team that's bit rougher or you're playing against a team that this and that's happening. So we're giving them that experience, isn't it? Does that come back then to, let's stick a little bit further on this idea of, is this maybe where festivals come in where it's like lots of different games, small formats then, two v two? I wanted to ask you the question, however, can small-sided games, is there ever an end point to them where, would you, because you seem to show a value of,

the connection between the teammate, the player, the teammate, and the opposition. Is there ever a room within a small-sided festival for 1v1s, or should we actually still, because obviously you're wanting to learn things in context to a point, would you ever do 1v1s, or would the minimum be maybe 2v2s so there's still a connection of the environment and what the environment requires in decision making? How do you balance that, I would wonder?

Peter Sturgess (: 43:15

Yeah,

if I take the festival thing first, I think up to the age of under 10s, nine-year-old children, I think their football experiences should be festival type events where they'll play multiple formats. So 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s.

multiple games, the result almost gets buried within the activity and the number of games. I think that's the perfect introduction to falling in love with the game of football because if we could make sure that wherever possible every child was playing, I think that's going to motivate more children to say, you know what, this is the game for me.

We had huge discussions at the football association about a 1v1 because certainly in the adult game, a 1v1 never happens in isolation. There's always a passing option or a supporting option or there's always a covering defender. So the way I wanted to look at it was if a child needed more time on the ball,

and they were at a level where you could introduce some kind of pressure, competition, interference, I think a 1v1 would be a nice step for them to take. But if they were beginning to become more confident and competent in possession of the ball and their focus was not always on the ball or their immediate opponent,

I think that's the critical point where they're now looking at what their next decision might be and that might involve passing to a teammate. in answer to the question, I would certainly look at the child. What is it they need? Are they at the point where we need to introduce this critical element of decision making and when to release the ball and how to release it? Or do they still need more time on the ball as an individual under

Mark Carroll (: 45:00

and

Peter Sturgess (: 45:23

differing kinds of pressure. Where are they? And that should really dictate what that looks like.

Mark Carroll (: 45:29

And that again seems like a really clear example again of trying not to take either for granted, which is again, it comes back to do we latch on to simple coaching points that just do the rounds. And I don't really know why they do them, like, example, like touch restrictions. know that, you know, and I don't know why it's so popular. think it's like, it's a funny one, like in children's sport where we just want to say, right, two touch mats, three touch mats. One actually, if you functionally look at what even top pros do, they don't always take.

they touch you, so it's a strange thing in terms of to help them understand how to manipulate the ball to then actually stop them from taking a touch, it's weird. But I've probably got to the point where I only put a touch of stretching out if the tempo's poor. But this, I think what your point is going back to thinking more organically about the needs of the individual and the group, but also then capitalizing on that window of opportunity to get out of children's sport, what children's sport allows to get, you know, if that makes sense.

Peter Sturgess (: 46:24

Yeah, this

touching of the ball is a really interesting one. I've had numerous emails where from grassroots coaches, after all the CPD events that I've done, they've said, I've got a kid, he's a brilliant dribbler. Should I put him on one touch? You know, because he needs to learn how to pass. my first question is, how old are they? You know, and this child might be eight or nine years of age. I'm saying, look, I know

there's a slightly negative connotation to this phrase, but I would say you've just got to feed the greed. And then over time, introduce them to the fact that passing options are there, but don't stop developing their ability to dribble because if a child's got a natural affinity of the way that they move their body when in possession of the ball, I think that's a real weapon that we have to develop.

And I would rather put them in situations where we help them understand there's a threshold where you're going to need your teammates. And I know at one Academy, I played a game where it started off one V one, but if some, a player scored, they would get the ball back, but the other team would get another player. So it's now one against two. We had a player who then beat the two players scored. So he got the ball back.

Mark Carroll (: 47:29

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 47:50

and now there were three opponents and he actually beat the three opponents. So he got the ball back and then he was playing against four. And the message to the coaches was when he played against four, he couldn't score. So the other team of four got the ball back. This one player now got a teammate. So we had to introduce the idea to the players was.

Mark Carroll (: 48:00

you

Peter Sturgess (: 48:17

You might beat one, you might beat two, but there is a time when you're going to need help and support. So I don't want to stop you dribbling. In fact, when you're dribbling against three and four, you're still trying to refine those dribbling skills. But I also need you to recognise that there's going to be a time to share it. There's also an urban myth about Messi, about when he was young, that whenever he lost the ball, the coach would stop the game and give him the ball back. So because they thought...

is this kid's got something. And it was interesting, Mark, and sorry to go on on this point, but it's such an important one. I was in Australia before Christmas and I was working with a coach from Brazil, from Vasco da Gama. He was their technical director and he put a session on where it was one player dribbling against first one defender and then a second defender. But he had three teammates.

Mark Carroll (: 48:50

No?

Peter Sturgess (: 49:12

guarding a goal so that if he lost the ball and the other team attacked these three teammates would come on help get the ball back and then they give it back to the dribbler to have another go and I thought my god this I've never I've never seen this type of practice before where he wanted to give the player in possession so much confidence to have a go knowing that if he lost it

He's got three teammates who were going to suddenly come on, get the ball back, and then he's looking to get in a position where they can pass the ball to him so that he can have another go. I thought it was brilliant.

Mark Carroll (: 49:51

Hmm,

that's amazing. So we're like coaching for success there, not coaching for challenge. Like there's a time and place, but there's a time and place. That's incredible when you consider that. The reason I was, what I was to jump onto there as well, is that you said just previous to that was the idea that you're not trying to get the player to fit in. You're not trying to see transfer, you're not trying to see adherence by the player to the session, but rather you want the session to help the player.

Peter Sturgess (: 49:58

I don't know what he wants.

Yeah?

Mark Carroll (: 50:20

see how their behaviors and shape outcome in the game. So you've actually changed it so that, you know, they can dribble if they want, but it's a far more powerful lesson to show them that where they fail, when they don't pass, is a better lesson to show as it helps towards their ultimate goal of getting ahead of what they're doing, rather than imposing it and manufacturing that epiphany. You've taken away their opportunity to reach that epiphany by putting in a condition that prevents that discovery, isn't it?

And that's the point, isn't it? We get into it too quickly, the outcome before we need to let them reach it.

Peter Sturgess (: 50:48

Yeah.

It is and my point earlier Mark about you know that phrase that I've heard grassroots coaches shout the most is pass it pass it when when the kids are six years of age it's it's it's background noise and it's ineffective because if you if you look critically at the young player they probably are still finding out where the ball is in relation to their feet so they're not aware of the situation around them.

They might have an idea of where an immediate opponent is, but their focus is so much and so much cognitive capacity is spent on where's the ball? What's my next touch? You know, where do I take the ball? They're not even aware of what passing options might be available. So if you reduce the format, you can almost put them in those situations knowing there's two things to think about. Are you going to do something yourself or are you going to pass it?

So the 2v2 for me is the perfect starting point for young players in helping them get to a point where their head comes up and now they are now looking for other things to do other than, you know, having the ball at their feet.

Mark Carroll (: 51:49

Hmm.

Hmm, I think that is so important because you're kind of straffled in the environment based on their attentional capacity because what you've brought into that is the view of like, if you think about the more general sort of free stages of skill learning, where there's that cognitive heavy element, you're trying to figure out what to do. So that might be the first thing to touch the ball or the first few weeks anyway, to then they reach that more associative stage where they need repetition, they're getting there, but until they reach the point where it's

more unconscious or more automatic, they're never gonna be able to take away their attention or share or spread, rather we say it, spread their attention between focusing on the ball and focusing on the teammate. So if we're coaching technical skills, what we can control or what we should at least aim to control is how many variables in them, well, there's a tension here. You don't want to necessarily control the variables in the environment, but you at least need to be aware that they have to spread their attention

across all these variables, so it's unfair to criticize them if the environment has too many variables, that maybe in that moment overcomes what their current attentional capacity is based on their skill level. So we can put them into variable environments, we need to still be conscious of the fact that their attentional capacity can't be spread across the task. Yeah.

Peter Sturgess (: 53:20

Yeah, and that's why

children grow up with these Where's Wally books, because they need to, from all of the images on that page, they need to find Wally. So kids are not great with their visual acuity, where they're scanning a football field. They might be able to see lots of things, but they won't know what's the most important thing, where's the danger, where's the spaces.

It's almost we're helping them understand where's Wally on a football pitch. And if we give too many variables, they're never going to find him. So if we reduce it down to there's one opponent or two opponents and one teammate, I think that is a much better scaffolding of the game and that their cognitive capacity than throwing them into five B five where there's there's just too much interference for them to make.

the really critical decisions that you have to begin to make to be successful in a game of football.

Mark Carroll (: 54:25

And is that then another myth then I suppose of the idea of let them play because if it's not considered the need to structure and straffled we perhaps put players in an environment where there's too many things happening at once as well. So while that's important for the development to us then we still need to ensure that there's enough conditions that allow for success or at least allow them to orientate what they think they need to do in order to achieve something in it. We'd latch on to that too much and we maybe don't apply it correctly.

Peter Sturgess (: 54:50

Yes.

Yeah, I've seen it, Mark, where if the numbers get too big, I'll watch some players and they'll immediately drift to the periphery of the game because they're putting themselves in a position where they can have more time to look, where there is less going on rather than position themselves in the middle of the game, where it's, you know, all hell's breaking loose and there's players moving everywhere.

So the players can give you an indication of where they're currently at. And if they are drifting out to the sides, then probably the numbers on the pitch could be too many for them to actually cope with at the moment. So they're drifting into places where they feel a lot more comfortable or they have more time to think.

Mark Carroll (: 55:39

When we talk about that point about what they can cope with, I wonder if we might, I'm really interested to know your thoughts. We've been chatting about it just with different colleagues around the different ages that a kid may present. And what I mean by that is that you may have a six, seven year old who technically is the age of a nine year old. But then we need to consider physically they're still the age of six. Maybe emotionally they're the age of.

seven, there's different ages that can occur there. I just wondered if we can maybe, because part of the conversation we've had here has been about stealing out to think about their holistic needs and how we capture that within a session. what has your experience been about how we support talented, for those that listening, putting that in inverted comments, but how do we support, what,

Peter Sturgess (: 56:25

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 56:30

what we presume to be talent and capacity in some respect with also the wider kid that's also in front of us and how we maybe make decisions on them, what we do with them, how we challenge them further. What has your experience been in that respect?

Peter Sturgess (: 56:42

Yeah, I think dealing with that kind of difference and those abilities where you might be off the scale technically, but socially and emotionally you're still very, very immature. I think we have to take all of those factors into consideration because I think certainly in the Academy game where there's more capacity to move players between age groups.

I think moving players up purely on technical or physical capabilities without any consideration for those psychological or social and emotional variables could be a mistake. But I am all for putting players in situations where it's easy for them so that they can hone their skills, they can practice what they're good at. So you need opportunities to play within those environments.

Mark Carroll (: 57:39

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 57:39

You also need to be put in environments where it's tough and you're almost hanging on by your fingernails. So perhaps if you've got a goal scorer, you put him in a situation that's easy and he's having lots of shots, lots of opportunities to refine their skills. And that's great for that player at that time. You then put them in a situation where he's hanging on with his fingernails and he might only get one shot in the whole game.

Mark Carroll (: 58:00

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 58:08

but he needs

to make sure that that one shot scores a goal. So there's a real benefit from being in those two situations. The middle ground is being in a situation where it's matched up. So I think the players need all of those three kind of experiences. And I know within the academy system in England, there's a lot more looking at what kind of games do we put our players in.

Mark Carroll (: 58:12

Mm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 58:35

So we've got a green game this week, which, you know, against these opponents, it should be relatively easy. But next week, we've got a red game and we deliberately chosen that because we want these players to experience that kind of environment and that kind of challenge. So, and then in between, you'll intersperse it with your Amber games where they're, you know, they're pretty much the opponents are good. We could win, they could win, but it's pretty even.

Mark Carroll (: 58:52

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 59:03

I think there's a lot more thought about that and I think there's a real benefit to doing it in that way.

Mark Carroll (: 59:08

Yeah, I know that's the first thing I've heard of the sort of amber, green, red game. To the mark, I thought it just struck me as well as you were speaking to that. I just want to put us to play devil's advocate. Do we need to necessarily choose between them? So do we need to choose between challenge and support? Because I would wonder if if we're maybe starting with the idea of the developmental ages across different stillsets, where that technically gifted six year old who

plays like a nine year old technically is thrust upon, and this happens a lot in academies, on this assumption that we need to challenge them. Let's say we move them up in age group. We can be moving them up there to challenge them technically, but we could still also give them the affordance of ensuring that their teammates who are older socially are looking out for them and paying attention to that. Could I wonder if sometimes we flippantly put kids up in age group, we then judge them in accordance with how they've handled the

Peter Sturgess (: 59:40

.

Mark Carroll (: 1:00:02

whole experience at a level that would presume all parts of the development are at the same age when we haven't maybe thought about the affordances we need to give and cater for for the other ages that they still present in that higher up age group. I just wondered what you think around that because I wonder if you need to choose between these things or if we can have tensions.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:00:22

Yeah,

I think what resonates with me, Mark, is that if you're giving high challenge, then you need high support. So I think those two things go together. I did see a session at an academy, I won't tell you the club, but I thought it was brilliant. They mixed under nines, tens, elevens and twelves all together on the same night. And there were technical practices, there were...

running games, physical games, and there were matches. And I was thinking, crikey, I think I might've gone, you know, nines, tens, and elevens maybe, but including some 12 year olds as well. And there were some four v four games, and there was an under nine, an under 10, an under 11, and an under 12 on each team. So there was a real mix. And I thought, ooh, the under nines might be a little bit more disadvantaged here.

and they did exactly what I described earlier, Mark. The under nines were on the periphery, so they were almost saying, right, what are the challenges in this game? And then eventually they would have one touch and then that would be it. They might not touch the ball for another couple of minutes. But then I saw them becoming more involved in the center of the game and perhaps making a challenge or putting pressure on. So they almost felt their way into the game.

And I think our job as coaches is to not just set the game up, we have to watch what the individual challenges are for each players and then try to gauge what kind of support we would give them. But these two under nines got fully engrossed and involved in the game, but not immediately. They almost dipped their toe in the water. And I think that kind of experience within the training session where it's

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:02

Hmm.

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:02:13

I think a lot less threatening is part of the preparation for when you're playing opponents that you don't know and the challenge is high. Because I think we can create our own environment in training and offer high levels of support when and where it's needed in preparation for, you know, at the weekend, I'm going to put you in that situation that you've just experienced here against those under 12s. And because you've shown me that you can cope. So...

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:23

Hmm.

you

Peter Sturgess (: 1:02:42

It's

almost steps towards what we're going to, you know, eventually challenge them with. But too often I've just seen players who come, they look as though they're ahead of the curve and they say, right, move him up, move him up. And it needs more thought and consideration. And I'm sure that's happening.

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:55

Hmm.

Yeah, and do you know what that sounds really and I could imagine that serves a purpose as well of what you say because otherwise what you get is you get the wee under 10 that trains under 10s and then he either then gets moved up to train with under 11s and then he plays under 12s but it's what we pray is that is it maybe that we're a wee bit too quick to think about thrusting him in that because when you thrust a kid to the next coach might go right we don't just put the under 10

straight from training with under 10s and to playing with under 11s at a match day. So we put them into a training session with under 11s. But what you're potentially risking there is that kid's confidence in certain things to a degree. So if you're talking about giving them a challenge with support, these nights where we mix all the teams together is letting you observe and see who's shown the capacity they were potentially have trained without risking, minimizing the potential cost to their confidence by throwing them straight into these.

Is that, you know, that seems to come through that sounds really, like really effective potentially.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:04:01

Yeah, I mean, I suggested it at the grassroots club where I worked. I don't work there now because there was a lot of not opposition. That's too strong. But eventually we parted company. We had we had under nines and under tens training on the same night at the same venue. And I said, why don't we mix them up so that

You know, we can carefully decide who plays against who to meet individual needs. We can create the environment. We can deal with any pinch points that happen. We can create something quite special here so that our players, some of the younger ones playing against the older ones, can gain confidence in actually being able to do it effectively because we've controlled it. And then at the weekend, one of the biggest problems with young players

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:49

Hmm.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:04:52

is they look at their opponents because it's a complete unknown. Some of them think they're going to be better than us. You know, we're going to lose this game. But if you've pushed your players towards playing against different players in training, where you're in complete control of the environment and who plays against who and what the format is and what the rules are, I think that's perfect preparation to playing

players that you don't know because you've almost explored what the unknown is like in training and with people that you know and trust. You've done that beforehand. So I quite like that approach as well.

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:32

Hmm.

Hmm, it's just I think that's the word you use careful being careful and honestly that's I could listen to you all day talk about this stuff Peter what I want to do and But they try out something here. Sorry to put you in the spot for this. I wonder if we can summarize And that's the hard thing to do it summarize part of what we've been talking about so far today if I could ask you to maybe give us what would be your Pick up take and move coaching hats that you think based on all the experience you've had across so many years of high quality experience what would be

Peter Sturgess (: 1:06:01

Ahem.

Mark Carroll (: 1:06:05

maybe your one, two, or maybe three maths coaching hack. What would be the tips you would give people based on maybe what we spoke about today, how they could use this information really succinctly for us. As best you can, I apologise for that.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:06:16

No, no, no. I think we are really scratching the surface of the value of smaller number formats. And the reason I say that is because they are the building blocks of large formats. So 2v2s, 3v3s, 3v2s occur within the 11 aside game all the time. In fact, the idea is to create those kind of overloads to give you an advantage in the 11 aside game.

I would really like to develop a generation of coaches who absolutely could coach effectively and successfully in those smaller formats because it's the perfect preparation for the kids when they go. The other thing that I would like is that coaches, when they were experts within coaching in those smaller formats, they became experts in transferring that knowledge and understanding into larger formats of the game. So I think

without that knowledge of transfer and the support to help players say all of that learning that you've done within the 3v3, this is what it looks like in the 7v7 or in the 9v9 or in the 11v11. I think that transfer is really important. And the other thing, my biggest bugbear is until we can guarantee a full game for every player every week, we are not

giving the children the best possible start to falling in love with football.

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:45

Fantastic. Now, thanks so much, Peter. Yeah, just it's been just wonderful to have you on and to chat to you about this. So yeah, thank you so much.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:07:53

Mark, I've enjoyed it and I'm sorry to have gone a bit, you know, Presbyterian in it. I think I've preached rather than spoken to you, but thanks for inviting me.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:01

Look,

we need that. One of the things that's really important for this podcast actually, Peter, is around disruption and we need to give different perspectives. Before we leave you, leave the guys as well, I want to plug in some of the stuff that you're doing and how people could reach out to you because I'm one of the, a website that you've obviously created around your company around sort of the, what's the name again? It's the Football Collective. Not the Session Collective, sorry.

Peter Sturgess (: 1:08:25

Yeah, no, it's...

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:28

I've been

on this myself and also I've had a listen to the podcast that you created, kicking it off. And it's really, really good. And it is another resource that think people could take up to learn more about that. So could you maybe very quickly describe some of that work that you've been doing outside of here and how people might get in touch if they're interested?

Peter Sturgess (: 1:08:45

Yes, the website is www.thesessioncollective.co.uk and it's a joint venture between myself and my daughter. My daughter is the technical expert with the podcasts, but what we've got is a range of experts within their field from child development experts to academy coaches to other people who are really

driven to giving children the best possible experiences in sport and football. And we've got one of the things we noticed was coaches wanted somewhere to go for a session, particularly if you're working grassroots and you've been working all day and you haven't got time to plan. We've got a whole host of sessions there for warm up activities, one V1s, two V2s, larger number formats where you can just

download the PDF, try it out. We've also got a forum where if coaches have got any questions, they can get direct access to myself and Lauren and we'll give you advice and guidance and we can also share that with other coaches. So we love putting it together and we hope that coaches will engage with it to help them give the kids the best experiences.

Mark Carroll (: 1:09:58

Hmm.

The benefit I can see straight away with that as well is that if coaches are anything like the way I was and still am to a point, searching YouTube and finding some generically pitched exercise that hasn't even been considered or pitched to children in that sort of sphere compared to what you can offer Peter in terms of really detailed tailored exercise that you've done and tried yourself and you know it works. that's really interesting and I really do hope that people listening take that up.

Brilliant, thanks so much again. And for those that are listening, I hope this conversation has been as useful to you as it certainly has been to me. we will see you next time.