International coaching leadership, with Chris Duncan

Chris Duncan (: 00:00

If we were chopping and changing who led on the ball and who led off the ball, week to week adding that would become quite confusing. But it doesn't mean that players won't speak to me about what they're doing on the ball and players won't speak to him about what they're doing off the ball. I think that's also okay, One's leading in an area and inevitably the other's assisting in an area. So we actually probably flip those roles all the time, is that he leads on the ball and I assist on the ball and I lead off the ball and he assists off the ball.

Mark Carroll (: 00:05

Hmm.

Hmm.

And

Mark Carroll (: 00:27

Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Labours of Sports Coaching. I was joined today by Chris Duncan, who is the head coach of Scotland Women's Senior Hockey Team and also the program lead for the Women's Pathway within Scottish Hockey. Really great conversation actually around not just the international coaching process, because actually within that and...

Chris gets on talking about some of the universal elements across club coaching international, but we do get into some of the unique realities of when you're working with the best of the best, if you want to call it that. And we touch upon this just because of Chris's quite varied background, know, being in both planets of working with the senior team, but also within the pathway, how they actually coach international youth players. And the conversation.

really moves into a space where it's about dynamics as well within the game and how you coach within the game and also within the coaching team and how you manage and coordinate it within a coaching team so that you can best serve the role that you have and to support the players. And we get a lot of different tangents within that around power dynamics, around authenticity, around role clarity.

as well and Chris is very open and honest about a lot of his best lessons coming out of mistakes and we talk a lot about that as well. So it's a really interesting and very important and helpful conversation I think for those, yes, particularly those that are in international coaching but also just those that are within club level coaching regardless of sport who are wanting to know a little bit about where they...

where they need to go and routes in which they can develop, but particularly when they become a head coach, how do you delegate, how do you coordinate, how do you consider the difference in role of a coach and a leader? And we've talked about some of the subtle distinctions there too. So really enjoyed this conversation. Again, born out of practice, born out of experience. The hockey team has just came back from Chile, really successful campaign. Chris talks a little bit about that as well, but there's a lot to be.

to be claimed from this talk, so I hope that you enjoy it.

And without any further ado, let's get into the conversation.

Mark Carroll (: 02:48

Class, great to you here. How are you? Just a start.

Chris Duncan (: 02:50

Yeah, very well thanks Mark, how you doing?

Mark Carroll (: 02:53

Excellent, not excellent, excellent. It's a nice end to the week, start to the day. So it's a nice way of kind of bringing in the weekend a little bit. You've been a busy man, obviously. I've been quite looking forward to this chat. I know you've been so busy with the women's national team and you've just returned from Chile as well in the back of a really positive result. How are you feeling at the moment with that and where you're at so far?

Chris Duncan (: 03:15

Certainly not enjoying the weather back here compared to what it was across there. It's funny, we left here and it was one degree and we arrived in 35 degrees and that was a bit of a shock to the system. I actually think the shock coming back to four degrees was worse. Yeah, doing really well. Great opportunities to travel the world with international sport and to do it and have memories that are kind of really positive ones around performances are great. So we went out there, right seventh, finished fifth.

Mark Carroll (: 03:18

Ha ha!

Chris Duncan (: 03:43

which is a really good outcome for us. Beat two teams right above us, which is really pleasing. And then pushed our world ranking a place higher, which puts us in the highest place since Rickers-Vigano 2003. So yeah, all in all, a pretty positive trip and just kind of coming back to Earth and now planning for what comes next.

Mark Carroll (: 03:43

Amazing.

I know and obviously I think I don't envy your position in many ways. I know you're a busy man, you're obviously managing the national team at the senior level of it and also you're the pathway lead for women's hockey as well within Scotland. This was actually a conversation and we're going to chat a little bit today about how you actually, what the coaching process is like at international management, you know, and we will kind of flux probably between the senior game and the youth game as such. It was actually a conversation for those that are listening.

You started at Sterling's coaching symposium, a really great event that was put on by Steve McDonald and the guys there at University of Sterling. And I was just really captivated by it because you were telling us a little bit about that process and also about team dynamics within that. So we'll kind of see where we get to with that, Chris. So I think maybe at first a good starting point with this is what actually separates international coaching from club level coaching in a way if we want to begin there.

Chris Duncan (: 04:56

I think it's important to make the distinction first that coaching is coaching. At the end of the day, we are working with people. In the medium that I operate, those people are hockey players, but I actually think that one of the simplest ways to look at it is all coaching is the same. You're just trying to help the individuals or the teams in front of you be able to achieve their best, consider not what they are.

Mark Carroll (: 05:00

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 05:21

as kind of an individual or a team on that day, but what they could be long term and try and challenge that and nurture that process. I think one of the biggest differences is in the international sport, you are judged on results. It's probably one of the biggest changes between the kind of club and international game is that how do we develop players and understand that it's part of a journey and part of a process of development whilst at the same time being able to generate the quick wins and the small wins that keep those that invest in us happy.

because that is the reality that people want results from it. So, yeah, I think it's a tricky correlation and it's trying to kind of develop winners and develop people that know how to win, whilst not, I suppose, talking about it explicitly is probably one of the biggest differences. And we work with such a range of different people and I think that, you know...

Mark Carroll (: 06:04

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 06:15

Obviously we've gone to Santiago, we've travelled the world, we've played in kind high level competition and as part of that there's quite like a big onus on tactical approaches and scouting, which is probably not as significant at the domestic level and club level and that's okay. But I think it's one of the challenges that we find within hockey specifically is how do you develop a 14, 15, 16 year old...

adequately in a way that they understand and they build this kind of tactical acumen whilst at the same time being able to have enough freedom. think coaching is a tricky concept.

Mark Carroll (: 06:50

And is that quite tough?

And I think it's really interesting straight away. You mentioned that word like development and that maybe we are guilty and probably I've been guilty actually of that and the way that I frame that question around you assume it is results driven. But you know, you've, and maybe this is part of you operating in those two spheres where you're both the manager but also in charge of the development pathway. So even within the senior game, there's development that can occur isn't there and working with a team across a longer space. But is there quite a lot of,

Chris Duncan (: 06:59

you

Mark Carroll (: 07:19

know, succession planning as well. We could imagine you've got your eye across this whole chain of a system and just the way you do that. But how does that, how does that work? then, yeah, just, yeah, just if you can elaborate a bit on that, that'd be really interesting.

Chris Duncan (: 07:34

Yes, my responsibility obviously falls around the women's national team and their performance, but also program lead for the women's side. So that is essentially like, how do we actualize the hockey playing philosophy of what we're trying to do? How do we have, I suppose, our teams and our individuals understanding our style of play and building the right technical skill set, without being too linear and prescriptive to allow us to long term be successful? I'm a firm believer that...

successful systems and successful pathways as a result of one program with multiple offshoot teams rather than just multiple individual programs working in silos. So I think one of the most important things for us is like being very clear around how do we want to play? What type of player does that require? What type of skill set do these different positions and different kind of roles that need to be played on the pitch require? And we spend a long time kind of looking at

Mark Carroll (: 08:27

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 08:30

who's next and that's not in a negative way but it's in a way that's positive of actually you know a successful senior team at the top level is a result of a pathway which provides an oversupply of athletes into that system long term and you know it sounds quite negative to call it a conveyor belt but that's in reality what we're trying to create is a conveyor belt of different athletes so we work really really hard to understand

Mark Carroll (: 08:46

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 08:59

who's in these roles and positions now. And then contingency planning, who at age under 23 might be the next people in each position, who at age under 21, under 19, and then under 17 are the people that are showing the right characteristics because it's really important that if we're going to talent identify well, we understand what we're looking for and how we want to maybe push these athletes and develop certain skill sets because when everyone looks at a player, they look...

Mark Carroll (: 09:13

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 09:27

through their own lens and through a different window. It's like, well, how do we, I suppose, delineate trying to just fix everything or develop everything versus develop the things that will allow that person to thrive within our current system as it stands?

Mark Carroll (: 09:41

So there's a lot of things we can unpack there, even that last point around, you know, what's the strengths and how do you meet that super strength, I suppose, is the main thing. I actually see a lot of, when you said this at very start, Chris, and I really do believe that actually, see this actually, coaching is coaching everywhere. And I'm thinking, within an academy system or, you know, youth level, that succession planning is, that's occurring there as well, isn't it? And a lot, you'd expect so anyway, certainly within any kind of organized structure that we're thinking, right.

you know, the 15 year old is maybe going to the under 16s or 17s now, so are we got someone who's ready to come into the air? And it probably has a little bit of an influence on selection as well, and even how you maybe scout players. Obviously the one difference at a national level being you maybe get the luxury of having more to pick. Could we come back to the point you raised just firstly around the idea of, like, sounds like, a lot of environments, and I can imagine at National Pathways as well.

where you mentioned the contrast between having one sort of view and one system that we're trying to work through versus branching off too much and having like a lot of compartmentalization within that. So, can you just expand on that? It's making me think about like, you know, have like foundation phase, intermediate phase, or is it not quite that, or is it that? What were you getting at with that point? Sounds interesting.

Chris Duncan (: 10:59

Yeah,

we very much are like adopters of the bio-banding approach within Scottish hockey in terms of what we do and you know we're very much believers in stage over age because at the end of the day we're trying to develop long-term.

Mark Carroll (: 11:06

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 11:15

I've seen an international team that's highly successful. just because somebody is, their birthday is not quite on the right time when they turn 16 and they're not quite ready for an under 18 program doesn't mean that long term they might not have the skill set and the characteristics that allow them to be really successful. I think one of the things that we've tried to do is like hockey is a game which is highly dynamic. There's lots of choices required to be made by an athlete. And I think we need to develop them into a way that they can do it based on a shared.

know, mental model and a kind of shared vision of how we're trying to play the game. So what we've worked quite hard on is understanding how do we chunk that philosophy down to make sure that people coming out of our emerging pathway, which is kind of essentially under 16s, what skills do they need to have and what do they need to understand in terms of our philosophy and actually what is the simplest way of them learning to play the way we want to play to build in this style.

Mark Carroll (: 12:12

Mmm.

Chris Duncan (: 12:12

Then as they

jump up to what we call our aspiring stage, actually what do we start to layer on based on what they've already got? example would be like the way that we play on the ball. There's kind of six principles that we might talk about that delineate how we try to play on the ball, whether that is, you know, being our support player being outside the pass shadow of the defender. And that's a phrase that we would use quite openly all the way down to how do we use the third player.

We wouldn't talk about all of these at every single level because I believe that if we scaffold correctly, we then build understanding. So what are some of the key things that allow us in a 14, 15 year old athlete to try and start to build the idea and the philosophy in their mind of how we play the game? Well, that might be that we want to be outside the pass shadow and we want to our feet facing forward. That's the two things that we might focus on when it comes to playing on the ball. And if we can start to get those things and those become really natural, we can start to layer on.

Mark Carroll (: 13:00

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 13:09

how do we use the guard player, someone behind the ball at the next stage and then we can start to layer on how do we find the third player as we get on. Instead of reinventing the wheel as players move through our pathway and system, well actually how does the system fit the players within it to make sure that we want to take people from age 14 when they join all the way through to being a senior athlete. Now is it realistic that we churn out tens of players every year? No, but actually...

Mark Carroll (: 13:12

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 13:38

can we develop a system that does actually support the athletes in terms of them developing deep knowledge of the way that we want to play the game and how we actualize it. So we've done a lot of work in terms of doing that. And that is also linked with the fact that hockey is a game that, of course, there are positions on the pitch, but the game is so highly fluid and the way that the ball moves and players move, players do need to be able to play across different positions. So it's very much actually what is the role that

Mark Carroll (: 13:44

Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 14:06

different positions on the pitch might end up having to play based on the way that the game operates and that's a lot of work that we've done to try and clarify that.

Mark Carroll (: 14:11

Hmm.

So yeah, it sounds, I mean, you mentioned mental models and it sounds almost like is limage and common limage is that important to you? I'm thinking about how you're trying to scaffold this and I wonder if sometimes we thought the Trappist coaches were maybe across a set up like coach A at X age group, they're maybe still transmitting the same information but just the limage they're using is different from coach and actually I think the way that people sometimes, the way people actually encode

information and a longer term memory. The words are actually quite important. We latch on to words and words allow us to sort of, it's almost like a, I think the best metaphor I've been given around this is a file in a computer and you know, if the folder's named one thing, it's easier to add things to that folder and need to make another folder for something else and then, know, crossing it. And have you seen that work out badly as it came from learning from mistakes or is it just something, you know, building a momentum of that language? If I'm reading that correctly, Chris, I don't know.

Chris Duncan (: 15:15

Yeah, I've always been such a believer in how do we build meaning attached to one agreed phrase. you know, I've had experiences probably through my coaching development and I came to coaching quite young of asking players to do something and them not understanding what it was. I'd asked the player, can you dribble the ball? And when I worked at a school and they said, oh, I don't know what that is. Watching them 10 minutes later, said this.

Mark Carroll (: 15:21

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 15:41

like this what you just did. Our PE teacher calls that carrying the ball. And I think, wow, right, okay, so we've got ability, but we don't have an aligned approach to decide and discuss and I suppose provide a name to what that is. That was like a real revolutionary moment for me, tiny moment in reality, but actually how do we, I suppose as coaches and people that are involved in programs, building programs, have an agreed?

Mark Carroll (: 15:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Chris Duncan (: 16:09

terminology list of, well, that's what we call this. And that doesn't

Mark Carroll (: 16:12

Is that about

efficiencies basically, Chris? Is that efficiencies because even though it sounds like a small episode, it's like that incrementally builds up, isn't it? And that's potentially a lot of time wasted just in terminology. You're not getting it right, is that?

Chris Duncan (: 16:26

Yeah, and I suppose I am, my drive in coaching is to try and make coaching as simple as possible for the athletes that I work with. So if we've got four or five different descriptions for the same thing and six, seven years down the line, you're saying to a player, you weren't inside the past shadow and you're having to then explain what that is. Actually, if our system is right in the heat of battle, that information can get passed across and there can be a solution to that problem based on that feedback.

you know, efficiency, simplicity. I think that's what we're really trying to achieve in coaching is like, how do we get a point across in a few words as possible to an athlete under pressure? And if we can, I suppose if the way that we coach and we spend a whole lot more time training and coaching than we do playing supports that, it means that I suppose we give ourselves a better chance of composure in the athlete when they're performing, but also ability to communicate with the athlete when they're performing and under pressure. And I see that as kind of a by-product of getting these things right.

Mark Carroll (: 17:23

you

It makes me think about concentration, suppose, as well, could have been in the heat of the moments where, you know, there's a lot of emotions and other pressures in mind. They really don't want them to have to detract attentional capacity towards stuff that just isn't as relevant. it's I mean, you made such a strong point there. See what you said as well, Chris, around, you know, abetting on the philosophy and the way of doing those things and, know, incrementally, you know, across, across a sort of development track of doing that. How do you...

I would imagine that requires quite a bit of commitment towards an athlete. And I would wonder how does that actually come to be in an international space where we always get at least from the outside and you would expect it to be highly competitive for year in, year out in so far as like no one position is safe. How do you have to commit a certain amount of time and assurance or obligation towards an athlete's development across years even in an international space if you actually want to see

some of these longer term ideas come to fruition because how do you balance that? Because at under 16s at national level, I would think if I was playing devil's advocate, you don't get any right to necessarily say you're going to be in that international camp at under 18s. But should we? How do you set out your commitment to the players for thinking about, want them to be in the women's senior side. How do you get that right?

Chris Duncan (: 18:45

That's a big question.

Mark Carroll (: 18:46

I know, it's not

easy, I'm not expecting a full answer either, it's just interesting to consider.

Chris Duncan (: 18:52

I suppose I'm really fortunate that we have very, very able coaches across our pathway. So head coaches who manage that. I think one of the key things from my perspective is visibility. It's one. I don't believe that people should ever come into the senior environment and not, who have been through our pathway and not already have some form of relationship with the staff that exists there. I think if that's happening.

you're setting that individual up to fail because you're restarting your relationship at the point where actually they're now under the most pressures. I think we have to build and nurture those over time. I think it's the first thing. I think it comes down to the reality that in our country, if we look at a youngster, kind of aged 15 to 17, they actually serve multiple programmes. They serve often their school programme, a club programme and a national programme. So you have this scenario where

the player is actually serving three programs. I don't think that that's the way we should view it. And one of the things that we try and talk about at the senior level and are rolling down is, well, actually, how do all of those different programs serve the player? So scenario being, you know, we have athletes who play in their club program and also play in the international program. Well, I don't want the player to be trying to develop specific skills just for me or just for our program.

and their club coach asking different things of them. Well actually the reality is if the player improves, they will provide for their club program better and they'll provide for the national program better. So we have like quite a robust IDP process which is all about actually the player driving it and they're open and we try and share that with clubs to say well this is what the player is working on and this will make a big difference. Of course there'll be links to elements that we need based on our system but...

I think one of the biggest pieces for us is our philosophy and our style of play, called the Scotland way, isn't just for our national teams. We kind of want to try and promote it to the whole domestic game in the country and it be very much a shared, built model of how do we want Scottish teams to play and how do we want Scottish athletes to view the game? When it comes down to the pathway, I suppose the biggest understanding is making people aware that where they are at on any given day is not where they could be.

Mark Carroll (: 20:40

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 21:04

And we want to be trying to focus on actually where could an athlete get to. So if there is a scenario where you've got a really able kind of 15, 16 year old, as you mentioned, well, where are they right now compared to what world class would look like in our senior level based on the type of players you want to create there? And how do we start to have those conversations which are built on, I suppose, radical candor in many ways, but at the same time, recognition of where they're at? I think one of the biggest

Mark Carroll (: 21:04

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 21:32

barriers to development is a lack of kind of shared agreement within different realms of sport. And when I say realms, club schools international of actually how we feed back to players. So for example, you know, being really complimentary of a player's ability to play, I think it's really important. But if someday in a school game where they are potentially one of the better players of the pitch.

Mark Carroll (: 21:44

you

Chris Duncan (: 22:00

place for with a good passes and scores three goals. You know, think what often comes about that was an amazing performance, brilliant performance, you were incredible. Well, actually, there were brilliant moments and incredible moments. But if we fill the individual's mind with you're incredible, you're amazing, how do we make that person better? And so I think like, it's really important that we are complimentary and supportive. But it's like, how do we

Mark Carroll (: 22:17

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 22:26

I suppose as coaches across multiple domains get to the stage where we recognise that those are brilliant moments and incredible moments but actually a brilliant performance is very different to delivering brilliant moments because I think that's one of the struggles is players are used to hearing, that was exceptional, that was exceptional, then they come to the suppose international domain and they're not then hearing that and they're doing the same things, then it's not the players fault, it's actually the system's.

Mark Carroll (: 22:53

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 22:55

the system's fault in a way that we need to solve. I'm not sure if I've answered your question.

Mark Carroll (: 22:57

No, you have and you gave me lots more to chat about there as well.

I'm actually like, gosh, I'm doing like, I'm thinking about how collaborative that needs to be. And it sounds like such a, it sounds like such a joined up approach. And I actually love that, that you're talking about how these various systems need to serve the player, rather than the player serving these various systems, because that is the whole, and I'll be honest, I come.

of a different world in football and like that is a real challenge trying to get that level of collaboration because I could imagine at club level, at school levels and things like that, that they also have got their own agendas and their own things that they're aiming for and their own standards of, and I think you've caught on to that as well, Chris, about what they see is good and obviously you, everyone's relative, isn't it? But to actually join that up, that must be a real difficulty but I could imagine.

when that works cohesively, like that must be so powerful. He's getting it right in Strokas hockey, do you think, to that extent? Is it a work in progress? it just as a case study? It could be quite interesting, maybe for other sports, they maybe consider joining up their own thinking in that way.

Chris Duncan (: 24:08

I think it's a work in progress. It's probably like a utopia that we're aiming for, but there's so much work to do to bring it to life. But I just think of how fulfilling that system would be for our athletes if we can get it to there. Because I also think that it's really hard to be honest. Your question was around how do we guide people through this process? actually...

Mark Carroll (: 24:12

yeah.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 24:34

I think the ultimate sign of respect for somebody is being able to tell them the truth. People talk a lot about, one of our values is honesty. Well, actually, the action of that is just telling the truth. it's a case of how do you keep an athlete going along a track and develop them and try and add in new skills and try and help them as a human being? I would say so many of my conversations are, you know, how's work?

Mark Carroll (: 24:38

Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 25:00

what we're doing about uni, how's that coursework going on? What is life looking like? Are you getting enough time away from the sport? But how do we build relationships that are strong enough to say that and to say to somebody, you're going well or actually you're not going so well here and we need to make some changes.

Mark Carroll (: 25:06

Hmm, but what you jump?

Yeah

And I think that brings us back to what you mentioned about, you know, picking out moments and not necessary. I think we do have that habit, I think. And you consider what you try to really foster, you're wanting to foster a sort of growth mindset or a sort of a, this sort of shared ambition towards excellence. And like, I think we do have a habit of global assessments all the time as coaches. So that was a good performance. You are good at that. are not, you know.

that moment was good, you're working hard at this element. We need to always try and push for the, if we want athletes to push their own boundaries, we need to ensure that we're providing a macro level view of who they are that at least suggest they do need to keep pushing. I just think that is so powerful and I think we do probably make that mistake. But then I wonder, is this a...

have you always felt that way or is this where, because you're coaching at what you would consider like that is elite level, we get to the senior management level of the women's team, but like, world class and everything's relative and how we work back from that. What's your view for example on like, do you even use the words like elite youth then? Because I wonder if we are, what is elite then? You know, in terms of like, just, I'm curious to know how you think about the language you use then and if we're taking it and stealing it up a little bit to work back from that.

Chris Duncan (: 26:31

I I'm building the plane as I fly it, to be quite honest with you. And I think we all are because it's like the days of master plans and this is how we're going to get here and it's linear. We're working with people and the game is so dynamic and the world is so dynamic that we're always learning and we're always evolving and tweaking. Do we use the words elite, like elite youth? No, because I just... Why are we giving people a label?

Mark Carroll (: 26:48

Hmm.

Mm.

Chris Duncan (: 26:58

when we don't actually need to give people labels and society gives people labels anyway. So we would very much look at our groups and say, okay, who are the ones that are really high potential? Because we have a job turning potential into reality. So we would speak about that, I suppose, like internally and within our kind of pathway staff. And also discuss, right, okay, how do we challenge the three or four who are really excelling?

Mark Carroll (: 27:09

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 27:25

And how do we really push them on whilst also bringing up the ones, because it's the same in every single group. There's such a range. How do we bring up the ones at the bottom? Because the reality is your teams are only as good as all of your athletes that you select, not just your top one, two or three. I think that's important, but know, link.

Mark Carroll (: 27:41

How do you manage

that? How do you manage development of individuals within a team at the same time as developing the team? Obviously it gets to you're developing teams aren't you to a certain extent because it's competitive, it's senior level particularly, but you still also have this shared value of the individual within a team and do they clash or is there actually a way that there's harmony within that?

Chris Duncan (: 28:04

You'd probably have to ask the players how we do at it, but I think it's natural. You're going to have players who are majorly high performing in any team. They're a real strength of the team, but it's like, how do you use those players whilst also recognising that everybody is valuable and everybody is valued? I always think whoever's on the ball is the most important player on the pitch and in our team.

Mark Carroll (: 28:06

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Duncan (: 28:33

And actually whoever's closest to the ball when we don't have it and is closing down is probably the most important player on our team. Again, it comes back to the idea of moments. I genuinely believe sport, hockey, it's just a game of managing moments. And if you manage moments really well, whoever that may be, there's a really good opportunity to do things well. And it's different when you're in the kind of pathway teams and through our kind of performance pathway in the younger ages because...

That's when you maybe do see ones who are really excelling and pushing forward. So actually it comes back again to the relationships and the fact of how do we all serve the player of saying, actually you're going really well. We need to kind of up the ante a little bit for you. I think it's a big responsibility for staff and we have, as part of our IDP processes across the entire pathway, players will either sit at...

red, or green in the program, which is the program management. But what we also do is we don't want selection to be a surprise, something which is really important to me. So we will sit in these kind of IDP blocks, which are about the kind of player developing and be really upfront and say, OK, if we're selecting for our major tournament tomorrow, you're either very likely to get picked, possible to get picked or not likely to get picked. And we will now, and it's kind of a bit we've just done last year or so is then

We pick 18 players for a tournament, we'll say to somebody, right, you're possible. But if I'm being honest, you're maybe number 20. And that's always at the start of the conversation. then that's then, I suppose, linked with the conversation here is about how we turn possible into likely or how we turn unlikely into possible. It's always about how we can do more in support because if you're saying to somebody, right, you're not selected or you're unlikely to be selected, actually, I'll be the one who's the most pleased if we change that.

Mark Carroll (: 30:02

Hmm

Chris Duncan (: 30:24

because I think selection is the worst job a coach has to do and will forever be the worst job a coach has to do. But I think when it comes to it, like you come back to the point you made around how do you build a philosophy, how do you build a style? Well, actually, what do we do as, I suppose, coaches or leaders of that process in order to try and bring it to life? You know, if I want people to be really creative, impactful and

Mark Carroll (: 30:24

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 30:50

playing the way we talk about playing? Well, actually, the stats that I ask our analysts to take on performance need to be linked to how are people creating that impact rather than how many errors are you making. So we will talk about impact scoring and they're all based on impacts on the game rather than negative things. I've said to a few players recently, I couldn't tell you how many turnovers you made because I don't ask the analysts to chart it because actually, I don't really care. I'd rather we...

Mark Carroll (: 30:59

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 31:14

focus on making more good impacts rather than getting rid of bad impacts because I don't think that's a way that the style we're playing kind of promotes it. So I think there's such a big onus on what we do as coaches, I suppose, across our whole system to try and bring this stuff to life rather than just all about being on the player.

Mark Carroll (: 31:19

Hmm.

So let's lean into that then, I'm really intrigued to know, like obviously your job is the head coach and maybe we can talk more specifically within the senior context. you can tell me Chris, I know a lot of times it overlaps in so far as the universal elements of this. How do you manage that? How do you coordinate different coaches or support staff in a way that you think is cohesive, that's harmonious, that offers...

One of the first things that I think has come out there is sort of like role clarity to a degree, even when you're talking about performance analysts, what is their job? And I would wonder if you might even maybe bring that towards what do your assistant coaches do? How do you manage, know, because the, suppose one of the niche elements, you again, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you go away with our national team, you know, tournaments, they're very condensed. very, you know, there is certain realities within that are quite unique. So I can imagine.

quite tumultuous and quite difficult to manage. So you probably need to have a very clear plan as a team for how you help each other rather than just everything's serving you or advice. So just if you could maybe talk to that a little bit, I'd love to get into that now.

Chris Duncan (: 32:40

Yeah, and I think the role changes based on who you're working with. So for me, I'm part of numerous teams. It might be a pathway coaching team, it might be our senior national team, it might be a wider contest performance team. And I think all of the things you mentioned become so important. I'm a firm believer, and it's probably from lived experience of not doing it that well, that everybody is a leader in their area.

I think my job is to set the vision and to be, I suppose, the gatekeeper of the vision, but it's everybody's role to bring it to life in their own departments. And it's probably a bit of learning that I've done over the last two or three years with my coach developer is, you know, how do I bring what is a bit of a perfectionistic mindset that I have always had and I'm trying to deal with? And how do I, I suppose, set...

Provide autonomy to others in a way that enables me to still I suppose have overall Control so to speak and an oversight, but that they are in charge right and they're leading and we work with them very very different I suppose like Different practitioners and my team out of physiologist is there's a physio. I've got assistant coaches analysts and I think it's really like key to me

that when it comes to my own team, I lead on off the ball, defensive stuff. That's where my priority lies during the game. My assistant coach, his focus is on the ball. he has autonomy for what we're doing on the ball. Our physiologist's job is to get the players prepared and ready. And that is throughout the year and at tournament times. So actually when it comes to any questions on that, I'm going to default back to him to say, what do you think?

And if there needs to be a decision made, I'm happy to make the decision, but I'll always say, well, what do you think? And I'm going to back it. So I think it comes down to when you're playing, you want the people beside you to really back you and play for you. I believe that's exactly the same in a staff team environment is, actually, what's my role and responsibility to try and make people they own, they own that area and it's their area to kind of drive. And I suppose if we're looking like away.

The thing that always makes me the happiest is like we finish a game and this is weird because it makes me happy and you've got like a coach, I remember staff, they're disappointed because it's their area and they didn't feel like we did it as well as we could have done and they're then saying well that's my area to drive and I love that, I like, absolutely love when people are so invested and bought in that they take real care and that I think is such a sign of like a really strong team so there's been a lot.

Mark Carroll (: 35:28

you

Chris Duncan (: 35:29

I suppose a lot of work because I used to be terrible at this and used to want control over everything and probably had to teach myself to get better at saying to somebody, you're in charge, this is your area, I want you to develop it and drive it, but I want you to paint done for me first. I want you to come back and tell me what this is gonna look like. So I have an understanding, not so I can say yes or no, but so firstly I can align it so I run the ball and off the ball game is aligned, but also so that...

Mark Carroll (: 35:46

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 35:58

I understand it enough to just say, you crack on. So, yeah, I definitely think it's something we're still evolving and tweaking, but it's been a big, big bit of work. I think we're like our pathway teams are doing that too. Each coach has a responsibility and each coach has an area to focus on. And they can focus on that in more detail because become a big exponent of we want people to think a lot about a little rather than a little about a lot because we're to get way more kind of detail, clarity and simplicity out of that. So.

Mark Carroll (: 36:01

Hmm

Mmm.

Chris Duncan (: 36:28

It's definitely something we're trying to push all the way down through our pathway. And I think for people, it can be quite hard to let go. But I think it's such a key skill to let go.

Mark Carroll (: 36:31

Hmm

Yeah, but what I think is

really powerful is that when you speak about let go, I think what you've showed, however, is that the autonomy that you're supporting them on is still structured and you're still giving them boundaries that allow them to understand how they interact effectively with it in such a way that it complements and you get the synergy of their added input rather than the...

you know, it be going in tangents and then everyone having their own siloed sort of way of doing it. I think that's a really good, I think that's where people need to get that wrong, where they feel like delegation means relinquishing all, you know, all elements of your remit as the head coach, but isn't, it not? I can imagine it must be really effective even from when you mentioned there Chris about, you know, if me and you were on the sideline and you wouldn't have me there, I wouldn't be very good at doing that. But if you and you were on the sideline, hypothetically speaking.

And you told me that your job's the defensive element of the game or some element. That's actually letting you as the head coach see more, it, rather than you having to try and watch everything all the time because you can't really do that. You're flawed and also we're probably flawed and biased towards what we maybe look for and what we consider. So yeah, think that that being helpful just for the fact of just coverage, I can imagine, live coaching, how do you get that right?

Chris Duncan (: 37:52

Hugely because that you can't watch everything and a player will come to you and say did you see this and I can now say no But I'll ask

Mark Carroll (: 37:59

And it sounds bad to the

players. Yeah. And could imagine the players would, the players want to think that they're the center of the world. like individually speaking, I could imagine as well, when I could, mean, it's been this myself, if a kid comes up and they say this or that, if I'm not able to give them information on that, they might feel a bit like, I been overlooked? Whereas that coach you've got next to is like, well, I've got information to give.

Chris Duncan (: 38:21

Yeah, and I think that's that piece around what you said, around structuring it is probably my fear when it first came to this idea of delegation was like just fully letting go. But again, if our philosophy is strong enough and our principles are strong enough and agreed, actually everything that these coaches do in their areas, they have autonomy, but it's within the bandwidth of these principles. And I believe principles are the way to coach because they just guide action based on what people can see in front of them.

that actually, you know, we might talk about a specific movement pattern for forwards or a specific build up shape and pattern for, you know, our backline against the pressing system. But that's going to link into the principle we have of talking about finding the third player. So I think there's a really big piece that we always speak about, certainly in our environment of actually how does our staff link back to the principles as much as possible. So there's freedom within those principles and that then makes it easier for the

the players because actually, fine, like this is our build up shape but it's to try and find the third player here, perfect, there we go. And I think that's one of the biggest things is if you've not done the work to define your philosophy, you've not then done the work to agree your principles and therefore you've not done the work on the training pitch to try and build players' knowledge and understanding of those principles, then actually it is quite hard to let go. But if it's, I suppose, freedom within a bandwidth.

Mark Carroll (: 39:44

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 39:50

That means everything remains aligned.

Mark Carroll (: 39:53

So, is there, so when you mention around, like, cause really you shouldn't, like, I think that's really to the, like, really, you shouldn't be seeing new approaches happening on the day of competition, but it sounds like these are things that have been trained already in practice. if we were talking about delegation of tasks, would it be your, would it serve your team well, or any team well, perhaps, before the Saturday or the Sunday, before the competition, where I'm going to ask the assistant coach to look for this?

maybe we need to also empower that coach to have time with that role in a training contest as well so they're building their understanding of it too because I've seen it happen where it's kind of off the cuff. Maybe in football, this happens a lot in academies, just maybe we have a curriculum and there's things working on. And then on match day, before we into changing room, I say, yeah coach, you're looking at defence too. And there isn't actually any reason to it other than we just need to turn the game up. it's just who drew that straw.

I don't know if that's helpful. I don't know if that's actually, maybe we do need to see it. I'm training a little bit more.

Chris Duncan (: 40:53

I think, again, go back to the macro level and the system level is that you want to build players' awareness of which person looks at which thing and which voice is the consistent voice on which area. So I look at defensive themes and off the ball all the way through the program. And my assistant will look at on the ball and develop the on the ball philosophy all the way through the program, not just on match day. So if we're doing like...

for training, actually, half of it I might look at counter pressing in the first half and he might look at something in the second half and we'll always coach against each other. That's probably the thing that we would do because there's a difference between chunking things up for the sake of chunking things up and actually chunking things up for the betterment of the players. Clarity is really important, efficiency is really important.

Simplicity is really important. If we keep changing the voice on that, then actually things get muddled up and I think we need to build familiarisation to it. we do that all the way through and probably quite uniquely, we went to the Under-21 European Championships last year. This is part of my role in the senior set-up and it fell under my remit to lead the Under-21s last summer. I'd seen it as a great opportunity.

to do something a little bit different. instead of me leading and having another tournament as a head coach, I put myself in the assistant role on the 21 level and then put my assistant in the senior level as the head coach in the 21. So we flipped roles. a team, sorry, like a team still in our pathway and a program still in our pathway, but actually a great opportunity for him to develop as a head coach and get experience around that.

Mark Carroll (: 42:39

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 42:40

We

kept the same kind of focus areas because at end of the day, when we're at the senior level, we're trying to develop a pathway based on it. So I still focused on the defensive elements. He focused on the on the ball elements. But actually he fulfilled the role of the head coach and I assisted him. I actually had so much fun, right? Because it was cool to be in a very different space. And it was also nice to be in a position where I think more people should try and do this, where I knew.

Mark Carroll (: 42:58

you

Chris Duncan (: 43:08

in moments, right, head coach is to feel a bit stressed here or this is something that might happen here, I'm going to fix it before it happens. Or I better have a conversation with this player because I reckon this is what might come next. At the end of the day, think like head coach, assistant coach, their titles. Yes, it'll come down to the point where somebody has to ultimately make a decision and that's fine. But actually, more that we can chunk it up and realise that actually people lead in an area.

Mark Carroll (: 43:12

Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 43:37

and that's way more important than somebody having overall power and autonomy. It was certainly a really cool thing to do. I think a really positive thing to do, but what I've kind of learned since we came back is it's quite an uncommon thing to do and that not many others have done something like this.

Mark Carroll (: 43:41

Hmm

It makes me think that actually, because certainly someone that's been assistant coach and then a head coach as well, in sort of space in football. But when you're assisting someone having been in the hot seat, I suppose, if you're then leading it, you probably are aware of the things that you could be doing to make their job easier. If it's something as simple as a developmental space, like who's had game time, who do we need to move off at certain things, how can we get subs ready?

Like because when you're then the coach who's tasked with observing things and really paying attention to what's on the park, that sort of, might call it administrative elements of the task, you really want to be able to delegate that and really think ahead to how you might be more useful. I would imagine, but is it safer to do that? Like I couldn't imagine, or you tell me, would there be difficulty if you were to alternate that at the senior squad? I can imagine, do you need to make sure that when you flip roles, we still...

ensure there's a consistency so the players aren't becoming confused because if it was week to week, even under 21s where you then become head coach, assistant coach, is that not going to create, if you're talking about you really want to for efficiencies, players to know who to go to in these small moments of their own breaks, intervals, whatever. How do you manage that element for the players' clarity as well?

Chris Duncan (: 45:04

Yeah, I don't want to chop and change it too much. was easy based on the way that we kind of were working across two programmes to make it work. think keeping as many things consistent as possible. So when it comes to a senior scenario, well, actually, when it comes to the starting team or announcing the team, well, that always comes in my bit. So we would always cover similar things. A normal pre-match meeting for us would be Jimmy, my assistant, going first.

Mark Carroll (: 45:07

Yeah.

Chris Duncan (: 45:29

and he would do his video, his plan for on the ball. I would always then jump in with my laptop and I do the plan for off the ball, for penalty corners, bit of motivation and then starting team. And we will always do that. So when it comes to any meeting, well, he'll go first, I'll go second. So they build familiarization to on the ball is going to be first and then off the ball is going to be second. So actually it's interesting to think, you know, if we just said between the two of us one day, right, you're going to be the head coach and I'm going to be the assistant.

Mark Carroll (: 45:59

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 45:59

Would

anybody notice? I don't know because I think I would still act the same way. And I also think that he would still act the same way because again, it of comes down to relationships. Like I like to get to know players and really understand them, be able to, I suppose, like see body language. I spend a lot of time when he is presenting, like scanning the room, because I obviously know what he's saying because we've discussed it and gone through it. So I scan the room and just look for people who are not quite sure or expressions that maybe

tell me someone's nervous, not feeling as prepared so that I've got that information for later. I actually think relinquishing some elements of responsibility allows you to really see your players a bit more and understand your players a bit more and kind of see different things. And then we'll always kind of have discussions around actually who's the best person to speak to this player in this moment to get the best out of them on this day. Like I think it comes down to again, consistency.

Mark Carroll (: 46:33

Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 46:57

If we were chopping and changing who led on the ball and who led off the ball, week to week adding that would become quite confusing. But it doesn't mean that players won't speak to me about what they're doing on the ball and players won't speak to him about what they're doing off the ball. I think that's also okay, One's leading in an area and inevitably the other's assisting in an area. So we actually probably flip those roles all the time, is that he leads on the ball and I assist on the ball and I lead off the ball and he assists off the ball.

Mark Carroll (: 47:03

Hmm.

Hmm.

And when,

let's say for in terms of managing sort of game day denigments and also this might be pregame or whatever, who does the talking then? Who would you, I mean, just sometimes again, people do it where right head coach says a little bit here, assistant coach says a little bit here. And again, if we're thinking about efficiencies or verse or maybe.

trying to get the tension right between efficiencies but also depth and detail. Like how do you manage that element? Just sometimes people think too many voices isn't great or there are probably pros and cons to it. What's your take on that?

Chris Duncan (: 47:56

I think it varies based on the time. What I mean by that is hockey is a game which is played in four quarters. There is a two minute break after quarter one and after quarter three, and there is a 10 minute break at half time. There's also the ability for rolling subs. People can sub as much as they possibly want. So it's quite dynamic and people are on and off the pitch. So you've got different points at which you can intervene and assist. When it comes to pregame, if we're scouting on opposition,

Like again, we chunk it down. He will scout the opposition's pressing systems and work out how we will play against them. I will scout the opposition's play on the ball and how we will press and defend against them. And so we will always present this. when it comes to game day, he prioritizes and spends all of his time and focus in terms of like, if there's a 30 minute pre-match meeting, he'll go for 15 minutes and I'll go for 15 minutes. Like it really is chunked down in that way.

and we would always let the person that leads in that area present the plan in that area. When it comes to when we were away in Chile last week, we slightly changed it. Normally we would have both of us on the bench and somebody up high with a tactical viewpoint. We actually only traveled with two coaches. So I was on the bench and he went up high from a tactical viewpoint. So when it came towards quarter time, we would have a conversation on the radio and I'd say, what points do you want covered? Everything, cover them.

Mark Carroll (: 49:00

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 49:24

So there was just one voice in there, so was quite easy to manage the two minutes, which goes pretty quickly. And in terms of making salient points rather than just making points. But then when it comes to half time, like our process at half time would be 10 minutes, so the players got a couple of minutes in their lines on their own and then we'll pull everyone together. He will make points related to on the ball because that's what his eyes have been trained on for the first half. And I will make points related to off the ball and then maybe pick up some individual conversations.

Mark Carroll (: 49:35

true.

Chris Duncan (: 49:52

It's not, I think there's moments and times when there needs to be one voice and we will discuss that. It might be, you know, we might be nil nil or one nil down or one nil up at the end of the third quarter. And actually in my, in my feel and gut feel says actually we just need one voice here because there's a really key need to have one voice. So in that moment we'll do it. And we'll decide who that voice would be or I would decide who that voice would be based on what we need to do.

Mark Carroll (: 50:20

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 50:22

So I think one of the key things is the better you get to know people and the more you work with people and the more you're able to switch roles, the more you can work out who's the right personality for this moment. It comes back to this piece around moments again, is that I think one of the key strengths that you develop as a head coach, but you only learn it when you become a head coach and do it wrong, is that your voice does not have to be the voice all the time. And it's about what...

Mark Carroll (: 50:46

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 50:48

is the right voice, the right message for the players at the moment based on what they need. But it comes down to trust.

Mark Carroll (: 50:55

I'd be quite keen to see what your insights might be here Chris, just for the advice of people who work within coaching teams that they aren't always really be as functional as that. I would wonder, and I've experienced that myself, you're dealing with people with personalities and when you talk about who's right for the moment, isn't there also a bit of a question about who's right for the role? Because there is also, we can't have an assistant coach trying to be a second head coach. And I wonder if we might even estimate, interweave a little bit with.

I know you don't really prioritize so much titles, but there is attention, isn't there, in terms of, think, certain hierarchies can be helpful because they do establish an element of boundary. But how, and this isn't necessarily asking us out of your own experience or certainly not for your own team, but for that coach who maybe is one of four coaches or two coaches who, it's not as harmonious just yet, or perhaps maybe we're thinking about how we might pair up coaches who do work well together because there's a lot of egotism in coaching.

And all the time there's an inference that who talks more is who's talking best. And you know, we need to get a lot of dynamics right there, I wonder. We're just dealing with people who are messy. So what would your advice be around that? Selecting teams, pairing coaches, making that work, that trust, that's not easy.

Chris Duncan (: 52:11

I think the worst assistant coach that I could ever pick for myself would be myself. Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 52:17

I don't know. And they all think that'd be brilliant.

It's like, it's just, they think just like me. So it's like, there you go.

Chris Duncan (: 52:24

And I also think it takes time to work out why Jimmy is my assistant. He's such a good assistant for me. We share a viewpoint of how we think the game should be played, but we deliver it in very, very different manners. It was interesting, my son was born, so obviously I wasn't at training the day my son was born, but we had the training camp. He had said to the players, because he told me...

Mark Carroll (: 52:46

You

Chris Duncan (: 52:50

I'm quite energetic. I am pretty loud, pretty bouncy when it comes to training and I would drive intensity and drive quite a lot of optimism throughout a session. Something I'm trying to mix up and not do quite as much to see if players can do that themselves. But one of the things he said to the girls was, I'm not Chris, I'm not going to give you this. You're going to have to drive this. And I think this is the important thing is I'm really comfortable with my own skin. He's very comfortable with his own skin.

the rest of our staff team I think are very comfortable in their own skin. That you want people that are different. You want people that share your ideal. We like to play quite fast. We like to win the ball on counter. We want to make the game quite exciting. So if I have an assistant coach who wants a possession-based model and doesn't like making errors, that wouldn't work, right? That's not positive. So I do think a lot of it comes down to the personalities. A lot of people talk about...

the views on the game. think that's one thing, but I think the personalities have to link as well. We spend a lot of time together, so you kind of need to be around people that you get on with. So I think a couple of things I would be really aware of if picking a coaching team is firstly, how do they connect as people? And that is how do you get on with those people? What are your of viewpoints holistically on the game and how the game needs to be played? Or how you want the game to be played? Do you look through a similar lens? And then I think people who are different characteristics, so...

I'm not always the biggest fan of insights, characteristics and things like that about how people act. But I think they're a really key thing to think about. You want people who are different, who respond differently in different situations. Because I think then that collective of different characteristics makes a massive difference to how it works. Our manager is the most ice-cool person in the world. She is so calm on the sidelines and things will be going majorly wrong. Somebody's got hurt, there's been a...

yellow card, so someone's off for 10 minutes. I'm in my headset saying I want this person, this person, this person on the pitch to manage these minutes and she just makes it happen. So like she works really well because she just flies under the radar and is very cool, calm and very system focused in those moments. Whereas I would be a total disaster in those moments. So like again, it's like, how do you find the right type of person for what you want to do? I think too often people just...

Mark Carroll (: 54:54

Mm-hmm.

Hmm

Chris Duncan (: 55:11

look at the game and the sport, i.e. they've got strength here in this part of the game, they've got strength here, I think we need to look a bit deeper and work out well, like what are these people's characteristics, how will you get on with them, trust is such a key bond, if you trust somebody it just makes life a whole lot easier. I don't know that's fully answered your question but...

Mark Carroll (: 55:30

Yeah,

no it is and I suppose you've answered that two levels as well from the coaching team side of things but then also just kind of thinking about how you manage and work with players as well but I really like, I'd like to zoom in on the, I think the word authenticity. I wonder if the people maybe, and this is maybe, I think what you said there that it serves as a good lesson I think for coaches either in applying for jobs or just in terms of how they act even when they're within the job because we have that sort of a...

Chris Duncan (: 55:36

Okay.

Mark Carroll (: 55:58

It's a social desirability bias where we try and be what we think people want us to be. And I think what you probably have happens is the authentic version of yourselves don't leap through regardless. So if you put on a face of something now, it's going to come out later down the line and that's not going to serve you well. And it's not going to serve the person you're working with well. And it kind of just shows the futility of that. Because I think there's an image of a head coach.

that people assume we better act like in order to be seen perhaps even as a succession because I imagine when you're a head coach you're probably working with other who are ambitious assistant coach who often want to be the head coach or you know and sometimes it's just trying to find your space isn't it and being world-class at that because that was one of the things you said earlier on the conversation about world-class standards world-class standards are relative as well and they can be within your own little sphere of influence isn't it

Chris Duncan (: 56:49

Yeah, I remember somebody saying to me, I was assistant coach to the national team for a few years before I was the head coach. And somebody said when I was given the head coach role, like, do you see yourself changing? It took me aback a little bit because I thought, actually, I don't want to change because I'm me. Now, there is elements of what I do that would need to change from being an assistant to being a head coach because

The reality is, you spoke around hierarchies earlier, if we're having a conversation with a player who's not going well, I'm leading that conversation. If somebody's not getting picked, I'm leading that conversation. If there's a challenge, I'm leading that conversation. That's not something I'd ever pushed an assistant coach. That's my job. That comes with the responsibility and I would never advocate the head coaches ever passing the buck on that because I think that's the point where you lose respect.

I think there are jobs that have to be done by the person with the title. And I think it's respectful to the players that that's done properly. When it comes to this idea of authenticity...

I am me. I let people into my personal life. I want the players to know my kids. I want them to know about my kids. I want them to know about my wife. I want them to get a real flavour of me. And the reason for that is I want that back from them. And that's really important to me. How can we ask players to open up?

Mark Carroll (: 58:02

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 58:24

and to trust us and to help us, let us help guide them as human beings and you know on their journey of getting better which takes you through like joy and also despair if we're not willing to do it ourselves and I also think like the real you comes through as you say in the heat of battle and in the moment and under pressure so why hide it? Now I've made this mistake of

And I think every single coach will have done it. I don't think you'll find a coach on earth who could honestly say, I've not done what I thought the team wanted me to do or what I thought somebody wanted me to do. I'm now at a stage where I'm quite comfortable that I'm going to do what I think is right. And I will also turn to the team and say, if you don't agree with this, challenge me. And I think that's probably quite a healthy place to be, but I think it takes...

Mark Carroll (: 59:10

Hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 59:16

time to build that, I suppose, comfort in your own skin and of what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. I think there's a perception thing here that's really important is if you'd asked me four or five years ago, I would not have been able to list the things I am poor at. If you ask me now, I could be really open about the things I'm trying to get better at and also the things I think I'm good at. So and that's probably what's allowed me to be a bit more authentic. But like I think.

You don't want to present a different version of yourself in a situation you've got no control of, so you just need to relinquish control straight away and don't put on a face. Of course there are times when you have to be the head coach and put on a mask and make sure you can deal with it, but you spend too much time with people and try to build too many relationships with people, think, to do it under a false pretense.

Mark Carroll (: 59:54

Hmm.

And

is there an introspective element to that too? Let's say, so like, because some coaches are better at autonomy and delegation and creating vulnerability and trust and others, all these things are skills. So they're not necessarily just diseases that like you're just to start trusting players and letting players feel like they can trust me because like I'd an example of that. Like you mentioned around open to be challenged. I've seen lots of situations where coaches would equally say they're open to being challenged.

they communicate that to players, players challenge them, it becomes a dispute, it becomes, know, and that's often probably that coach not maybe pushing their own still set too far, that's their own developmental spectrum there, they're trying to get better at doing that, but they can't go all the way with that. And I would wonder, it better, just curious to know your opinion, would it be better for a coach to be more closed if being more closed at the time and space where they're at? Well, they're stretching herself.

well, it allows them to actually follow through on their commitment to that because I think the worst thing you can do and the easiest way to lose trust in players is to betray it. like, again, if we're talking about authenticity, if you are that coach who is a bit more distant and you know, know, that's just part of your personality. I wonder, it better to lean further into that, but to mitigate it, maybe again, through the synergy of other staff that you work with, then trying to be another version of yourself and create, it's all buzzwords, isn't it? We hear that all the time.

the best coaches allow for one of the best coaches allow for, you know, we hear it, but people aren't, it's a style, isn't it? just, what's your take on that? And by all means, I really challenge you on it if you like, as well, I'm just, curious to know.

Chris Duncan (: 1:01:40

Challenge.

Like it comes back to the piece around like don't try and be something you're not. If you're someone who's going to really struggle, like it's hard to sit in front of a group of 18, like for me, highly intelligent, highly successful, incredible young women and say like, because they know the answers and they know the thoughts. So if you're not sure and actually it'd be tough, don't open up and say, I'll be challenged on this.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:46

Yeah

Chris Duncan (: 1:02:11

find somebody to work with you who would be that person for them. And then I think be okay with who you are. I this is one of the most unique things about coaching is like you line up against other people and you look down the sideline. I often think like, are they as a person? that you then you see that come through in the way their teams play. And you also look at the way that actually it's not a head coach that makes a team tech. It's an entire coaching team and program staff that makes a team tech.

d hard to do since the end of: 2021

change the Scottish psyche. It's probably one of my least favourite things about being Scottish is our underdog mentality. And, you know, why can't we win? Why can't we go out and beat these top teams as a mindset? Whereas I do think a very Scottish thing to do is say, well, they should beat us because they're a bigger nation. They've got more people. It's the same across so many sports, but I want to really rubbish that title. And one of the things we'd spoken about was, like, what are we here for?

Mark Carroll (: 1:03:17

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 1:03:37

what are we actually here to do? What is our journey and what are we trying to do? It's amazing when you hear the athletes talk about their care for it. I said in this meeting, one of the things that frustrates me the most is if people disagree with something I've said or a plan that I've come up with or a tactical approach and you leave the meeting and then days down the weeks down the line, it's like, oh, I wasn't really sure about that. said that's probably the thing that I hate the most. So I was able to be really open with them to say, so like here,

Do not leave the meeting if you've got something to challenge. Let's challenge it. Let's all accept it. Actually, I'm part of the team, you're part of the team, the staff are part of team, it's your team, we're all part of it. So please challenge. I think it's, I'm comfortable with that now. As a younger, neophyte coach, I wouldn't have been comfortable with that. Not at all. I would have really struggled with it. Which is why I probably would have stuck to more of our do this, do this, do this, no questions asked approach.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:22

Mm.

Yeah.

Chris Duncan (: 1:04:35

But I wonder

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:35

Yeah.

Chris Duncan (: 1:04:35

if that's something that comes with experience, not with age, but with actually experience of dealing with it, to accept that it's so hard. But actually the players at the end of the day probably have quite a of the answers, because they certainly feel it on the pitch a lot more than I can.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:43

Yeah.

There's probably, I think that's you said there. Obviously, you're someone that's learned from your successes and your mistakes, Chris. And I think even that point in the end there, there is probably a bit of utility to, the best lesson around authenticity is to try and act like someone else and see how it runs for you. Because then you'll figure it out very quickly or over time. This isn't actually how I do it. And I think there is an element of, I think there's an element certainly you work with your under coaches that they need to be in an environment that's going to allow them to make mistakes.

and even as they build up in an air level. I think, you know, everything's relative, isn't it? Even that really experienced coach at youth level, he works with 15, 16 year olds. As soon as they go up in another age group, I know there's certain things you can carry with them, but there's still like that word, that neo fact that they become a beginner at another age group and we need to probably give them a space to be vulnerable and to give them a space to figure things out the wrong way. Just they do that as well. And it's often, it's not hard, it's not easy to do.

Probably not as hard to do as we also say as well. So it just comes down to the environment helping the coach, isn't it? So, yeah, there's a lot to it.

Chris Duncan (: 1:05:56

think it's hard to

do in your own environment, think at times. It's probably something that is quite important to us, like internally for us is actually how do we give our emerging coach under 16 an opportunity to develop. But actually that's probably not in their environment. How do we bump them in with the seniors for a couple of days or take them away on a trip with the seniors or how do we have another 21 program that...

Mark Carroll (: 1:06:01

yes.

Chris Duncan (: 1:06:24

has a head coaching assistant, but actually do we bring the second assistant from one of the other areas? I think it's quite hard to learn as a head coach because you're trying to balance so much. And this is the thing that I think is missing in sport is that the job of all the staff and the coach is to look after the players. And that's basically what you're doing. But when you put yourself, you become good at coaching and you end up getting jobs. And then you end up in a scenario where you're head coach of a

national team and you're no longer a coach, you're leader and you're thrust into this role that you've had no training for, no preparation for and actually very little guidance for and you're like in a scenario for me I was thinking I've got 34 athletes who I look out for but nine staff who I work with regularly and I'm there looking out for them and I think one of the things that's missing in the coaching world is like who's who's looking out for the head coach?

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:18

you

Chris Duncan (: 1:07:19

I'm really fortunate, like I work with a coach developer and actually like my relationship with him, it's like, it's just sounding bored that I couldn't actually deal with it because how unique is it to have somebody who's there looking at you and looking out for you and just watching how you're interacting and acting and presenting yourself is how do you get better when you're not, you've not got somebody who's helping you get better and I think that's probably one of the things.

I always advocate to any coach who's trying to improve. like, find someone. It doesn't have to be a mentor, doesn't have to be a coach developer. Find someone who can help you, watch you, spend some time with you because after every single training camp or every single trip, we fire out a feedback form to our athletes and the questions are around what do you think you need to work on? How can I challenge and support you more?

what could I do better for you or differently for you? Because I think we should normalize feedback just being part of it. Whereas I think what becomes really commonplace is you end up in these roles and you're in charge. It's really hard. And it's really hard to get yourself in the right head space to keep getting better because you feel under threat and under fire all the time. So like actually...

comes back to authenticity. Ask your players, build relationships with your players where they can give you honest feedback regularly. So that it helps you because it helps the team positioning that but also finding somebody who's there to help you out because if not you're in a scenario where you're just looking out for everybody and no one's looking out for you and actually least of all yourself because you're spending so much of your energy elsewhere.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:50

Mm-hmm.

Chris Duncan (: 1:09:10

And then that leads to, I think, making poor decisions during gameplay, making poor decisions tactically. We were in Chile, I can't even record the number of times I said, I really miss my kids. I think that's okay to say to the players and actually chat with them. So, yeah, I think it's just a really hard job and we should probably all be a lot more open about how tough it is.

Mark Carroll (: 1:09:13

Hmm.

Hmm.

Oh yeah, just people are, you can be both, you can have euphoria and disappointment simultaneously, you can have so many emotions and I think that is true. We probably don't allow that vocabulary of thought to exist in their quotes together, isn't it? That probably comes down to these preconceived notions of what a quote should be, how they should act and this and that. And I quite like, actually I think, just in the way that you justify your point around.

you know, as you go up a ladder and that, the coaches, even the head coach, they learn a new, it's like a new game, isn't it? Because as much as you need to be, you need to coach in order to become a head coach, being a head coach when you say it's leadership, leadership, yes, is embedded within coaching, but when you get, eventually you steal leads, finds up to a point where your job is so entirely different from maybe having to account for one or two variables, just your, your coordinating activity among so many people. But what I actually quite like, Chris, is that you've,

Well, you mentioned the need to get a mentor and to have someone external. For those that are listening, maybe don't feel they have access to that, or maybe they haven't explored enough routes. There is also an in-house, use the player's voice, use the aim as a coach, a coaching tool for yourself. And do that as quickly as you can do, because I think that is the issue as well, it? Often whenever I speak to people who are head coaches.

And then again, relative to where they're at, and I found this even myself, even in a youthful capacity, if no one's questioning you, people become stagnant because they've never been questioned, and very quickly complacency creeps in and you actually reduce. I if you're not growing, you're reducing. You aren't even just staying the same, you're reducing. know, because all of a sudden the things that kept you in your toes are no longer there, and you're not got the stimulus to do that. It's just, yeah, it's really powerful. Chris, I'm conscious, obviously, of your time as well.

What we like to do at the end of this some of these sort of conversations is try and give Kind of some coach hats maybe if we will so if I can even challenge it to summarize maybe some of the key messaging that we've got to hear particularly around like Team dynamics and how you manage them both so you manage yourself as a coach is there maybe two or three things that you can maybe Concisely say would be you would you'd want to listen to take away and use tangibly

Chris Duncan (: 1:11:44

I think the first one would be when you're working with other coaches or you have a team of people who you work with, be really clear around when giving people tasks or giving people autonomy, getting them to paint what done would look like so that it helps you understand which will then help you manage and help you, I suppose, be the gatekeeper and ring fence the philosophy would be the first one.

Second thing is like really consider the impact of language and terminology across an entire system and that if so people build meaning on one thing and that meaning becomes deeper and deeper and actually that doesn't have to be a top-down approach it could be something that the under 10s coach describes it as that kids pick it up really well under 10 well that's what we're all calling it and I think don't ever be too proud to

to allow that to happen in your system because I think it's really organic for it. And the third one would probably just be the importance of authenticity that we've discussed today around you don't have to change just because your role title changes. And actually you want people to trust you and to build really deep connecting relationships with you so that you can guide them. So I think it's really important that you give that back too. Because I think that if you can do that, you're

at the end of the day, you're working with people. I think connecting with people before connecting with the sport would always be my biggest takeaway.

Mark Carroll (: 1:13:19

Yeah, no, love that. Honestly, Chris, it's been wonderful having you on just to be able to chat through your process and where you're at today. And also it's amazing the great work that you're doing as well with the national team. So thank you so much. Thank again as well for those that are listening. I hope this conversation has been nearly as helpful to you as it certainly has been to me. So yeah, we'll see you next time. Thanks again, Chris.

Chris Duncan (: 1:13:41

Thanks so much.