Lessons from the best coaches, with John OSullivan

John (: 00:00

The scariest coach is the one who's done learning. Right. And what I find is that very few of the people at the top, none that I've met, but I'm sure there's some there. None of they're not, they're not done learning. They're always open to what's next. What's the next thing that'll give me a leg up.

Mark Carroll (: 00:12

you

Mark Carroll (: 00:18

Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Labours of Sports Coaching. So this week I had the honor to actually interview John O'Sullivan. Now John is about a household name actually when it comes to coaching podcasts and written works because John's actually released four books on the subject of coaching. But you'll know John from the Way of Champion podcast, there's over 400 episodes.

It's an absolutely fantastic podcast with lots of different guests presented on a weekly basis. John's also the founder of the Change in the Game project and it looks across loads of different areas of coaching in terms of youth coaching but also senior coaching and I kind of just wanted to hear about all the lessons that John has not just observed and learned on his own time.

with himself as a coach, as a season coach, but just through having access to some of the best coaches going. know, Phil Jatson being one of them, you know, on the Way of Champion podcast. we speak a little bit about some of the themes of the podcast and to the certain trends that he's seen over the course of 400 episodes because we need to lean something from that. If that many coaches are saying that much about a certain topic or multiple topics as it came to be often.

surprise, surprise relationships and it's important and we'll go into that. Then it's telling us something about what maybe we as coaches can do to catch up and to continue to improve on our own merits. So it's a really good talk from a brilliant guy. And yeah, I just hope that you'll enjoy it. I absolutely loved it. A reminder while I've got you as well, if you have any comments on any of episodes, please leave them wherever you're listening to our podcast or if you're connected with me on

LinkedIn and you know drop a comment, but I often post about the episodes when they're released, drop a comment there or message me direct and we can continue the conversation. I want to reach as many coaches as possible but also reach out to as many coaches as possible so please get that conversation started and again there's other support links that we can do to help each other that I won't go into to keep repeating to you, you'll be fed up hearing about. So yeah guys, so just please.

Sit back or do whatever you're doing and enjoy this episode.

Mark Carroll (: 02:43

So, John is great to have you here, how are you?

John (: 02:46

Mark, it's great to be on and thanks for the great work that you're doing as well. We were talking before we started recording. I've been looking at some of your guests and the people you've had on. so I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Mark Carroll (: 02:59

Yeah, no, thanks so much. I must return that and say it's a privilege to have you. We were speaking off air actually and you your podcast, Way of Champions, that was like one of the first podcasts I came across. Actually what I hadn't had the chance to say to you, John, as well, your TED talk was also like, I think I was in my third year of my undergraduate degree. This was way back, this was 2014 or 15, around the time that the TED talk came out. And I'm fairly certain that I used it as a case study and an assignment.

John (: 03:28

that's cool.

Mark Carroll (: 03:28

Yeah, it

was just cool. you know what? Because it was so... And the reason why I quite enjoyed the return to it other night, because it's still so prevalent, almost to the point where... Aye?

John (: 03:39

It's not okay standing the test of time. mean, people ask me that

a lot, like with books or stuff like, what would you change if you did it? I, I mean, I think that talk, you know, it was interesting, like people, you know, it's not that hard to give an hour talk. It's really hard to give a 14 minute talk, and, and, and leave, leave an idea in someone's head. And so, I mean, I probably put a hundred hours into that 14 minute talk to get it right.

and back and forth and narrowing it down and cutting out and getting it in my head. was quite the project, it was, like I said, it stood the test of time.

Mark Carroll (: 04:19

Yeah, I mean, actually, need to ask this actually, because I wasn't sure to does the video and the part that stood out to me was the recreation of like the kids coaching adults and to experience. Did you put it together or was that outsourced? That was that was a different one.

John (: 04:29

Yeah, the Canadian hockey stuff, yeah.

no, was the Canadian, Canada hockey

put together a whole series of videos around a couple of years before that, that I had loved. of like if, you know, for those who don't know, it's like if the roles were flipped, right? So in the one I showed there, it was a kid, a dad on a golf course about to putt and his kid standing over him, yelling instructions at him and saying, you know, get your own ride home.

Mark Carroll (: 05:00

You

John (: 05:00

But they

have a whole, I mean, they have ones with pin the tail on the donkey and grocery store interactions and yelling at police officers. And it's, it's really, really funny stuff. They did a great job with it.

Mark Carroll (: 05:11

Yeah, but even, to be fair, even more powerfully, I think just the principle that you laid out in that TED Talk around just, I love watching you play, just like the power of that. I know it was sort of more, at least it felt as if it was more targeted towards parents, but I think as coaches, we know more and more that coaches maybe need to just allow the kids to play. And without starting us off on a sore note, I'd be quite curious to know.

Is things improved from your perspective? Is that for the same reason that I said that thought seems fairly prevalent even today? Because I want to know what's happened since then.

John (: 05:46

you know,

I think there's, there's pots where things have improved and pots where things have not improved. And, you know, you throw in a global pandemic in the middle of it. And we obviously at that point lost a lot of children to sports, know, huge, huge numbers. so let's, you know, start where things have not improved, you know,

I mean, kids are still dropping out of sports at a crazy number. Specialization is getting pushed younger and younger and younger. Early selection, certainly here in North America, the selecting of A teams and then extensive travel for younger and younger kids, even when you live in a big city of millions of people is happening more. So that part hasn't changed.

Back then I did that talk in: 2014

We can change it on the club level or school level or community level where a school or a club really gets behind. This is how we're going to coach our players. This is how we're going to treat our players. this is how we're going to behave towards officials. And this is the standard of behavior for, for all the adults in the club. And if you don't like it, please go someplace else. And so I have worked with organizations that have made that, that change.

Mark Carroll (: 07:29

Mmm.

John (: 07:29

The positive where I feel is very different from 2012 when I started this is that I think in the coaching world, there is much more awareness about sports psychology and the importance of relationships, right? That coaching is a relationship business. It's, it's not an X's and O's business and, and that improving relationships, caring, communication, motivation, all that.

fairness, joy, whatever you want to call those things, those are skills and they can be learned and they can be improved. So those aren't things that you either have or you don't. you can improve those. I think in the coaching world, there's an awareness of we could be better. Right. And then I think, in the parenting world, yeah, there's more good information out there, but I still think, and again, I can only speak

Mark Carroll (: 08:10

Mmm.

John (: 08:18

I would say intelligently about North America is the there's so much fear. So parents say, I hear what you're saying, but if we don't do this, my kid is out of the pipeline. If we don't do this or if we stand up for this, they'll throw us out of the organization. So there's still so much fear of missing out and kids getting left behind that parents can look at all the good information.

and still make the opposite choice. And so I think that's what we're working towards now.

Mark Carroll (: 08:46

Hmm.

Yeah, and do you know what, like, I know of course there's some, an extent there's maybe an increased investment from a parent to a child in North America, purely because of scholarship ambitions and different things like that. I it still occurs here in the UK as well, I think. I would agree, but I think in recent years, previous years it's probably felt like more of a luxury item, this idea of athlete welfare and a child-centered thing. Now I do believe it is more of a mandate, but.

It's still again, execution of that policy is a whole other thing, isn't it? When you mentioned John C around this sort of coach, because again, obviously you launched the, obviously you founded Changing the Game Project and it's been going for over a decade now. What has been, I'd be curious to know your insight around how we can improve that parent coach relationship, because sometimes I wonder.

John (: 09:32

Mm-hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 09:42

If we want to work with parents, is there a little bit around how we actually pitch the conversations? Because sometimes I feel like it's about people teaching parents and parents don't want to be taught things. feel like parents want to be included sometimes. But obviously that's my own experience, but I'd be quite curious just to be able to delve further into that part that you mentioned.

John (: 09:57

Mmm.

Yeah,

mean, I think, excuse me. Sorry, you know, I think that the...

I think you're exactly right. Right. Parents don't want to be educated. Right. When you put up parent education. and then, we try to use the word engagement. How do we engage parents in the process? Because ultimately a coach and a parent and an organization have the same goal in mind, which is to help your child reach their potential. mean, no one's coaching kids going, I hope they never get there. Right. So the coach wants to get the most out of them.

Mark Carroll (: 10:20

Hmm.

John (: 10:38

And the parents want to see their kids thrive. And as an organization, you want to see your athletes and your, and your, teams do well. so we all have the same goal in mind and really the, challenge is how we get there. And so I think there needs to be more two way respect in that coach, parent, parent, coach relationship. Now, as a coach, you also have to think of yourself as like,

The math teacher, if, if a kid was failing math, the parents have a right to know, well, why is my kid struggling and how can I help? And too many coaches still treat that as don't talk to me. You don't get to know whatever. Right. And I don't think that's, that's right. Versus, you know, talking to those parents like, here's your role. Here's where your son or your daughter is struggling. Here's a path forward.

Mark Carroll (: 11:13

Hmm.

Yes.

John (: 11:32

Parents have to respect the fact that the coach has, you know, training and knowledge and expertise in a certain area and that they get to choose to do things, you know, how they want as long as it's not harmful to the child, right? But that it might be difficult for your child. They might be challenged. They might be stressed. They might be holding them to a standard that you don't hold your kids to at home.

Right. And so, and so there has to be appropriate boundaries for parents that, know what, 24 or 48 hours a game after a game, then we can have a conversation about something. We can talk about your kid, but not other people's kids. Right. We're not going to talk about tactics. That's not your role as a parent. If you want to do that by all means, volunteer, come coach. Um,

Mark Carroll (: 12:13

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 12:25

You know, so topics and timing and place of conversations are appropriate boundaries that coaches should set. Right. And then, you know, understanding, Hey, I have 16, 18, 20 players on my roster. I can't engage with each parent for three hours a week. Right. Like I have to do my job. And so you can't write me some big, long email every single week or.

Mark Carroll (: 12:35

Hmm.

John (: 12:53

or set up a meeting every single week. You know, I think, mean, and you're a lecturer, so you know this, but you're a younger guy than I. When I was in university, right, if I needed to ask my professor a question, I would have to walk across campus, make an appointment, or go to his or her office hours. Like it was a huge chunk out of my day. So that, if I was going to do that,

Mark Carroll (: 13:00

You

John (: 13:21

It was a pretty significant question, right? Now they can just send you an email. What pages are we supposed to read tonight? You know, whatever. And I think that same thing in the parent coach relationship exists where it's just so easy for a parent to dash off an email to a coach. Whereas if they had to set up a meeting and take time off work and do this, it's probably not an issue that they would deal with. They would just say, Hey, work through it. So.

Mark Carroll (: 13:24

Mmmmm

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 13:49

So I think these

sort of things have challenged a relationship, but there's amazing coaches out there and amazing parents out there who get it right.

Mark Carroll (: 13:58

yeah, and hard part is, isn't it, a lot of times, if a coach is struggling with getting their boundaries set, we have a tendency to just go from one extreme to the other. You're either floodgates open or completely closed, and then what happens in that scenario is anytime you do have an interaction, it's normally some nuclear, know, big something really bad, we need to talk, and then they start to associate you with that, and you start to associate them with that, and it just eats itself, doesn't it?

One of the things you said, John, as well, that I just wanted to return to there. And you know what it got me thinking actually, you'll need to forgive me because I forgot the exact name of the guest, but I was listening to one of your podcasts recently. I think it was one from the archive and it was talking a lot. I it was titled, like, Every Coach is One, Conversation Away from Changing a Kid's Life. Yeah, and the guys were talking, and yourself included, John, and I thought it was brilliant. You were speaking about sport in itself as like a...

John (: 14:42

Yeah, yeah, Joe Erman, yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 14:52

It's a wee laboratory that's safe for allowing kids to simulate what they experience in life, but in a comparatively safe space. if only the relationship between a coach and a parent was correct, parents would be able to double down on the opportunity that the coach has actually given them to allow their kids in what should be a fairly incubated space where the risks aren't, they're superficial to a degree, but it only happens if that trust is there. And I think.

I think this is what you were getting at as well. Coaches sometimes forget that that kid is someone's baby and even if that kid's nine or 10 or that parental protection, they're always gonna be alert. They're always gonna want to know what's happening and it's that, yeah.

John (: 15:35

Well, you, I mean, you're,

you just shared with me that you're a dad now, right? And you're, you're coaching. I've never met a coach who hasn't said to me when I became a parent, everything changed because I think you truly then understand love and trust. And, you know, I always say, you know, most parents, like I say, think about the first time that you and your spouse went.

Mark Carroll (: 15:40

I... I...

John (: 16:01

out on a date after your child was born. Right. Like you didn't just entrust your baby to anyone. Like if it wasn't grandma or grandpa or something or like they're like, do you have a medical degree? What sort of training do you have? What sort of expertise? Right. And so then you start understanding that trust isn't just about like your ability to kick a ball or throw a ball or something. Trust is about that connection. Trust is about

Mark Carroll (: 16:12

Mm-hmm.

John (: 16:29

Walking the walk, not just talking good talk. Trust is about vulnerability and admitting that you're wrong. That's trust. coaches and parents have to build this relationship of deeper trust. I think coaches, what I always advise is with your athletes and with your parents, like think of it as a bank. You want to make deposits into that trust bank.

Mark Carroll (: 16:33

you

John (: 16:54

because there's going to be moments where you need to make a withdrawal. And that withdrawal is not necessarily breaking trust, but being really hard on a kid. So I think when we, we see some of the best coaches in the world, you know, you know, yelling at a player or something like that. Well, what went into that relationship before that snippet on TV, there's 99 % that is not on TV in that moment that sees that

Mark Carroll (: 17:16

Hmm.

John (: 17:21

that that player has gone, he's raising his voice to me, but that's out of love because he has spent so much time showing me that he's in it for me and he cares for me and all that sort of stuff. Now, when we're working with youth, we have to not only deliver that to our athletes, but we have to ensure that our parents see that as well. Right. And so how do we do that? I think that's with messaging.

Mark Carroll (: 17:31

Hmm.

is

John (: 17:46

When you're doing player meetings or evals or whatever. But for me, when I saw a kid do something really well or something really hard happened, a goalkeeper gave up a bad goal and were really down on themselves. I would usually that evening send an email to the parents that would say for Mark. Right. So I know the parents are going to read it, but it's for their son and just, Hey, Mark, listen, I know you were really down on yourself after the game.

Mark Carroll (: 18:06

And yes.

John (: 18:15

And it's easy to focus on that one mistake. But what I remember is the four phenomenal saves you made before that that kept us in the game. Right. You've been proven so much. You've been working hard and this is part of the journey. So keep your head up. Right. Now I've built trust with the player and the parent at the same time. Like, he sees my kid. He sees how upset he was. And these little moments that take 30 seconds a minute are

Mark Carroll (: 18:29

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 18:42

giant deposits in that bank.

Mark Carroll (: 18:44

I think I love that analogy that deposits in the bank and it makes me, I mean you give a very striking comparison there because in the same way that I could be chatting to a wee kid in very constructive terms but the parents maybe don't see it because it's in the changing room or it's with the kids and then you're then relying on a kid and it's not fair to put this level of pressure on a kid to relay that accurately back and consider as well, particularly new sport, isn't it John?

There's things that kids want and there's things that kids need. Kids don't always want the days when they would have lost or the days when they would have been given a criticism or whatever, but for their character development, there is legitimate case to make for why they need that. And if parents were just able to get that behind the scenes look sometimes, and that's a really tangible strategy you're given there around just the email. And also it probably shows a bit of involvement as well. It's quite an intimate thing. You went straight to them.

John (: 19:34

Yeah.

I mean, relying

on a kid, right? And I have almost 18 year old and a 19 year old, relying on a kid to relay back the contents of a conversation around performance or a difficult thing is like relying on your dog to tell you the truth that they haven't been fed tonight. know? Like, it's not there to be like, no, no, please feed me again.

Mark Carroll (: 19:58

yeah.

John (: 20:04

Right. And so, and

Mark Carroll (: 20:05

Yeah.

John (: 20:05

so I think the, this is our, this is if you think the kid's going to go back now, this is not to say that as a coach, you shouldn't say, let me have a meeting with your son or your daughter. Right. Like this is an important thing that we're teaching kids to have adult difficult conversations face to face without mom and dad there, obviously in a safe, open place, right? Like safeguarding wise, but.

Mark Carroll (: 20:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John (: 20:34

This is, you know, we're doing this. But then when I have that conversation, right, I follow up again with a note to the parents saying, hey, just wanted to fill you in on the conversation that I had with Mark today about X, Y and Z. This is what we discussed. These are some of the goals I set for him to, you know, do this. Right. Now the parents are in the loop. Now they're not relying. Now they might ask Mark and Mark, you know, as a typical 15 year old goes,

Coach says I suck. And then they say, well, actually, no, coach sent us a note and he said, did you talk about this? Well, yeah. Right. And so and so again, this is this is it. But if you think and I mean, like there's so much software out there now where you give player feedback and you can actually see did the parent actually open this or not. Right. So at the end of the season, when that parent comes and says, well, I didn't know my kid was in danger of getting cut. And you're like, well,

Mark Carroll (: 21:23

Hmm.

John (: 21:30

See the six pieces of feedback here that I sent you that you never bothered to open. I'm sorry. Like I was trying, you know, and so, so I think, you know, all this goes together. Like we just need to, you know, communicate just like we would want the teacher to. And once you become a parent, you get it that if you see your kids struggling, your immediate instinct as a parent is how can I help? It takes.

Mark Carroll (: 21:37

Yeah.

John (: 21:56

A moment to take a breath and say, should I help in this moment? Right. Or is this a great opportunity for my kid to struggle and have to show some resilience and, and, and work through this? but once you become a parent, you understand that's the instinct. And so I need trusted people on the other side of that interaction, knowing that, Hey, they have my kids best interest in mind.

Mark Carroll (: 22:21

Plus, mean, we'll move on just one time, but just to say there as well, the idea you said around, there's actually power to engage in the parents because like you said, it means they're accountable to their end of the bargain. think that's really cool. We've had similar things just with clubs that have worked on the password. You it's only you hear this, this and that, but then when you actually put it to parents, we'll look, we're engaging with you here as you know, if the shirt at that point, then that's a different conversation to have.

You know, you're making me think already, John. I'll be honest, my wee boy's not quite at that stage yet, but I feel that I'll need to coach him. I think I'd be a nightmare parent. I don't know if I could trust myself. I'd like to think I can trust.

John (: 22:59

I encourage everyone to coach their kids, especially

because you just get a different perspective of it. You appreciate what goes into it. It's not just roll out in the field and roll out a ball. There's a lot goes in. I met with a friend of a friend yesterday who lives in town and he's coaching his seven-year-old and he's just like...

Mark Carroll (: 23:06

Bye.

John (: 23:22

They're crazy. Like, what do you do and how do you handle this situation and whatever? And it's just, you know, there's a guy who's got, you know, some background in the game, but not a ton. And he wants to, he wants to be better for the kids. And, and, you know, and it starts with like, Hey, please don't give your kids all this sugar before they get here. Like, you know, they're killing me here. They're going crazy. And so,

Mark Carroll (: 23:37

Mm-hmm.

you.

I know.

John (: 23:51

You know, so, so I think it's things like that, but I encourage all your listeners, like coach your kids. I'm so glad I coached my kids when they were very young and then took a break while other people coached them and then sort of coached them. Middle school into, you know, high school and then passed it on. Right. And so I kind of got to coach them in grassroots environment and then more of a, you know, select travel environment.

Mark Carroll (: 24:08

Hmm.

John (: 24:17

And it was great. It was super fun.

Mark Carroll (: 24:20

Does it come with its own vices? I mean, the reason I say this, John Sawyer, even as part of my PhD, I've done a wee bit of work actually with parent coaches and looking at influences on their behaviors. And it wasn't plain sailing for them either in the that it didn't correct, it just made a new equation. There was stuff where the emotional investment that they have because they've spoke to the kid on the way to training, during training, after training, it's tough that as well, it?

John (: 24:32

No.

Very hard.

mean, think, I think Mark, like, I think first of all, little nuances required. And I have this conversation with organizations all the time. There's a difference between a parent coach and a coach who happens to be a parent on that team. Right. And the nuances, a coach who happens to be a parent is trained as a coach. He or she has ex subject matter, expertise, coaching, teaching.

Mark Carroll (: 24:47

Bye.

John (: 25:13

pedagogy, whatever it is, they've got expertise in an area and they happen to have a kid on the team. And that is a wonderful situation, I think, in grassroots organizations where you have someone who is really, really experienced working with these young kids. And then you have the parent coach who maybe doesn't have any of the expertise or training, but God bless them has volunteered their time and needs a lot of resources and help.

support and things like that. So I've seen these organizations make these blanket, like blanket things of like, you know, there was no parent coaches here, whatever. And I'm like, well, that's, that's just dumb because then what you do is you lose out on good coaches who want to watch their kid play, who care a lot about the development of that group because it's their kids friends and

Mark Carroll (: 26:02

who care a lot as well.

John (: 26:09

If they can't coach their own kid, they can't coach because they're certainly not going to say to their spouse, Hey, you go take the kid to the games while I go coach some other kids for the organization. You know? And so I think that's important now, now to get to sort of the essence of it. Yes. It comes with its own very unique set of challenges and the one you just described the

best thing you have to, you, you have to be really good as that coach, that parent coach is to take your coaching hat off and put your parenting hat back on. Right. And just, I'm not your coach after practice ends. I'm just your dad. I'm just your mom. And what, when we ask kids, right? Well, what, what's not good about your parent being the coach that's a practice never ends.

Mark Carroll (: 27:02

Mm-hmm.

John (: 27:03

You know,

practice never ends and it comes from a great place as a parent. comes out of love and I just want to help you out. But but that's that's the that's the challenge.

Mark Carroll (: 27:11

Yeah, so I mean, obviously I know your work extends and this could be something and it's so you could have an episode five if so there's books written about this and it's just as its own little topic but I know that your work actually extends beyond that as well and you know ever since you also founded the changing the project you've done incredible work with coaches over a number of years and what I was really intrigued to know and this is before we even get to the podcast and just the amount of guests that you've had on that

Like you have been spoiled, no doubt, John, with just the different voices that you've listened to. But also I could imagine the amount of observation you've been able to make over the years around what subjects you feel are the most challenging. So I wonder, let's maybe compartmentalize a little bit first, more so in your day job, if that's the correct term, with changing the game project. What have been the...

across the years that you've been in that space, what have been some of the biggest challenges that you find coaches encountering? And I know it's really broad to say, but is there anything that stands out for you that you feel is an issue that maybe we need coaches need awareness of, or maybe in fact, we may have some solutions around or at least starting points to?

John (: 28:21

Yeah, I mean, I think this is probably a challenge that coaches of every generation faced is how is the next generation different from you? And then certainly those who are coaching in the youth space now and who are coaching Gen Z is understanding I'm 53, right? I, you know, I remember when my daughter was 13 and we hadn't gotten her a cell phone yet and she was all upset and she's like, well, how old were you when you got your first cell phone? I was like,

32, you know, so.

Mark Carroll (: 28:53

Aye, and

you probably hit it against the wall and it wouldn't break.

John (: 28:56

So, so, so

we have this like challenge of, okay, how do I understand who's in front of me? Right. And, what, what do they need, to make this a great environment for them? And so, you know, Gen Z, right. They, have shorter attention spans. They want to know the why behind things. But I think a big thing about Gen Z is.

Something like 80 % of them say they experience anxiety when they're separated from their devices. Right. And so this is who's in front of you. So your environment has to be quick and moving and organized and the way you coach has to be, you know, you know, get in, get out, give good feedback and, and move right. Kids standing around, listening to you lecture.

trying to make four points, you've made none. And so I think this is the challenge that I think a lot of coaches face as the kids these days, but that's not an excuse, right? And so people are reaching them, figure out how to reach them. And I think that's the genius of the Carlo Ancelotti's of the world and people like that who just, we had a woman on the podcast, Tara Vanderveer.

She won national championships in, in women's basketball at Stanford university, 24 seasons apart. I mean, she was able to reach players who, know, they're very different from 24 years ago. so that's coaching is not saying, these kids, what's wrong with them? It's like, how can I change to draw it out?

Mark Carroll (: 30:34

And that's the point you just ended on there. You could always look at these about what kids lack, but there's a lot of things that kids nowadays have that is strength. They're highly aspirational, I do think that. I think that the issue is maybe not understanding the amount of perseverance that they tackle goals. I've probably faced a lot with just digitally they see everything happening now. there's an element of they want to do things and they believe they can, but then they need guidance there. But they're also, you know,

John (: 30:42

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 31:03

There's certain opportunities that I've seen and there was a recent paper I read and actually, forgive me, I forgot exactly the author's name. It was on the sports site podcast that was done a while back. Basically, it was talking about the gateways to have conversations with kids nowadays. There are kids out there that face to face and this is something that has to be worked on because they need to develop social literacy. But knowing that a kid could open up more by text or through certain other messaging services, that...

That potentially allows a plan B that we never previously had, obviously doing it correctly in the right conditions, these sorts of things, like if we even consider the age group that you used to work with, you may currently still do, but like collegiate level, there's 20 year olds, 21 year olds who could be re-engaged now through these digital mediums. And that's just one tool, and that's us figuring out how we can use phones and not ban them, but there's...

It all comes with black and white.

John (: 31:59

Yeah.

And I think as a coach, you make a decision, like you still set the standards, right? So, so by communicating a little differently or changing the way you're not dropping your core principles as a coach, you're not, you know, where this is not advocating for not creating a demanding, challenging environment. This is not advocating for not making it hard.

And dragging people out of their comfort zone and watching them struggle. Like this is not that at all. Right. It's just how I get them there might be a little different and how I get them to see, well, what's good about this might be a little different than it used to be. But, but, know, I think as well as a coach or as a teacher in school,

my lessons are going to be most impactful when they're reinforced at home. So if the parents get the kid in the car and tell them the coach is an idiot and whatever, and know, John sucks and Mark, should be playing, lessons are gone, right? And this goes back to this parent engagement piece. Like, listen, we both want to make your kid better. I have to help you understand what's going to make him or her better.

Mark Carroll (: 32:52

Hmm.

John (: 33:13

And I need you to back me on these things in these difficult moments, especially around around behaviors, right? Where we're we're we're coaching, we're we're we're teaching appropriate behaviors, especially on the grassroots level, right? Because the right behaviors repeated over time is what's going to make someone good. So that hard work, that focus, that discipline, that resilience or grit, that respect for your teammates, all those things.

Mark Carroll (: 33:27

you

John (: 33:41

I'm setting a high standard. need parents to back me up on that standard because you know, if, if your kid spits on a kid and I take them off and I say, that's never okay here. And you get them in the car and be like, that kid deserved it. Your coach is an idiot. We're just wasting our time.

Mark Carroll (: 33:58

Hmm.

And is there anything in that? Do you know what it got me? I'm just going to keep digging up your podcast, but it got me thinking about that same episode. There was a point made around in order to teach character, you have to model it. then I think that probably extends across the different stakeholders who are involved in that, not just the coach, but the parents and how we manage that.

John (: 34:16

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

mean, Joe Erman, right, who this podcast was, and I recommend to all your listeners, wrote, he wrote the book that set me on this journey. was called Inside Out Coaching, right? That there was more than just the X's and O's and he's a former NFL player and, know, tremendous athlete and advocate for coaching for many, many years now. but one of the things he, talks about as well, you know, he says, you know, it's a mistake to say, well sports teaches character. Like.

Sports might teach some sort of performance character, right? Like, you know, again, the hard work piece and, just the, you know, suck it up and, and be willing to suffer as you're running sprints or in the weight room or just had a hard practice that might come out of this environment, but moral character, right? How you treat other people.

how you treat yourself, how you act in your community, your attitude of giving versus getting, all that, that does not come out of running sprints or lifting weights. That only happens when coaches intentionally teach and model those things. And if we look at our role as coaches is developing human beings who happen to be rugby players or footballers or whatever, then we have to intentionally

talk about and teach those things. And I think that's a really important thing and piece of nuance for coaches to understand that your respect doesn't happen unless you model it and you teach it.

Mark Carroll (: 36:02

And something that I've always kind of gathered from you, John, is that obviously it's so clear how much you value the culture and environment that a coach creates. Now, sometimes, and again, maybe this is just part of the evolution of thought, but oftentimes with most coaches, there is still a bit of a coaching scene in the drill, coaching scene in the content. I think there's people are pushing more and more about the interpersonal nature of things, but I do often wonder...

the stuff that gets coaches a job is sometimes still placed within what they do and the activity. it just seems like, I just, again, I just want to see and ask you that, honestly, and if you don't agree, please tell me, I just want to know how much resonates perhaps, or how, if you've seen that sort of thing crop up in your observations, like how much do you feel coaches want to learn about this versus learn about, you know, the drill and the coach. To that is important, and coaches are performers on their own rights, and I think.

I would like, I that's part of this equation isn't it? Everything we ask the coach to do, coaches need to feel confident in their ability to do it and I think we need to manage both things don't we? We're developing the coach as a performer and helping them develop the player as a performer. There's two sides to it.

John (: 37:10

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the,

you know, this is never ever to say that knowledge of the sport and the more activities and ideas that you have around skill acquisition and periodization, all this don't matter. I mean, of course they matter, right? They're just not sufficient. And, and so, yes, we tend to hire coaches based on

Well, we tend to hire them based on their playing background, which really doesn't have a lot to do with actually coaching and teaching. and then we, and then we tend to, but, but we rarely ever fire them based on a lack of knowledge of X's and O's, especially at the highest level. Right. So, so that knowledge, I mean, we had Steve Kerr on the podcast. He's like, look, you got to know your stuff, you know, in two days, if you don't know your stuff,

Mark Carroll (: 37:45

Yep.

That's nice.

John (: 38:05

players are like, why, why are you here? But after that, he goes, you know, he goes, it's about, mean, Steve said, he's like, it's probably 20 % knowledge and 80 % relationships. That's how he would describe coaching in the NBA. Right. He's like, because everyone knows their stuff and then your assistants, they know their stuff. So you have good engaging sessions and all that sort of stuff. But getting the most out of people is about the relationships and understanding.

Mark Carroll (: 38:17

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 38:34

You know what, what they need. So I always make this argument like, again, in coaching education, it's much easier to just give a bunch of drills because I can test people on that and I can measure and say, covered the, know, these attacking principles and these defending principles and these transition principles and whatever. Great. Because it's very hard to look at the other stuff in a short period of time. Right.

Mark Carroll (: 38:41

to clear your offset.

John (: 39:01

in someone's personal environment, right? How does a coach assessor look at, know, how does Mark connect with his players? How is Mark connecting with their parents so that the kids are performing their best? How is Mark organizing stuff? It's not, you know, it's not, that doesn't necessarily come out of there. And so I think coaches are called upon to really do that sort of side of education on their own. and it's a mistake to think, well, if the FAA doesn't offer it, must not.

Mark Carroll (: 39:03

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 39:29

matter because I, and I think as a young coach, I spent 10 years looking for the magic practice. Right. And then you realize there is no magic practice. I remember, I remember the first time I watched Pep Guardiola run a training session when he was at Byron.

Mark Carroll (: 39:36

Mm-hmm.

John (: 39:45

He wasn't doing anything magic. He didn't have anything in his arsenal that, that I haven't seen before. I don't have, he's just way better at it than me. Right. And, and he's got the respect of his players because of who he was. And he's got this incredible attention to detail, but he, his coaching was not giant group coaching. His coaching was in these activities and these breaks of one-on-one talk, little teaching pink, grab this guy one-on-one teach this.

Mark Carroll (: 40:12

Hmm.

John (: 40:14

and that created this super high demanding, organized, intense environment. But it wasn't the drill, it was what he did within it that really made the difference.

Mark Carroll (: 40:24

Yeah, it's the opt-ins, it's what we see as an adopt and we'll tell us about what's good because there is a fallacy to up to the degree, isn't there, trying to reverse engineer what the elite best coaches do because you aren't coaching in their environment, you don't have their athletes. Like, who's to say that the best way of coaching the players who don't make onto the podium isn't the same way as the ones who do it? Like, how do you know that, you know, there's necessarily to say that even the best teams are the best teams because of the coach. You don't always know these things.

and it's just interesting when you label it. One of the things I actually wanted to ask there, John, come back to the coach education part. And like, mean, I'm a coach educator myself and I totally appreciate that is that element of how do you actually resource this and how do you actually standardize it, you know, in terms of it's easier to standardize, you know, a session because then we can try and any components and there's things we can look for and, you know, we need to match skill sets with jobs and those sorts of things. But if we were just hypothetically here, I'm just curious to know your opinion.

What if we got, what if we not get rid of assessments, but what is it, is it a problem that we need to assess all the time? Could coach education be better placed if it wasn't so much assessment and it was always about what you can feed forward? But then how do we manage that? I know this is, I'm not expecting you have a comprehensive answer. I don't have one. But just spitting the, you know, just spitting the spitball on that a little bit, it's an interesting concept.

John (: 41:47

You know, no, I mean, I think there's

a place for both, right? Like I want my doctor to do continuing education and know the latest and greatest stuff out there so they can be the most effective doctor. And every couple of years.

Mark Carroll (: 42:02

And a certificate

of attendance isn't any cut out there either.

John (: 42:05

And a certificate of attendance isn't gonna cut it. I want them to go

and take an exam and show me that they're up to date with the stuff that's going to save my life. But at the same token, it's not just about how to do this surgery or how to repair this knee or how to rehab this ankle, right? There's like a whole other side to, does healing come from your...

connection and your patients trust in you and all that sort of stuff as well. And so I think as a coach, it's the same thing. think we, we, there should be, if we want to say coaching is a profession, well, professions have testing and assessments and continuous education and knowledge. That's what a profession is. And so that's good. But I think it's.

It's very easy for governing bodies to really narrow the, the material that is covered in that. Because, because again, go out to a professional game this weekend, what percentage is technical tactical, the success of the team and what percentage is psychological, right?

Mark Carroll (: 43:05

Hmm.

Yeah.

John (: 43:18

And,

and, and how they mentally approach it from their preparation to what's happening in the moment to their ability to respond to mistakes, you know, you know, so, so you have all these different things, but I, the, the inner game, the psychological piece gets one hour out of 30, right. And, and, but no one would say, it's only, you know, 5 % of it. You know, everyone would say, you know,

You know, no, it's, it's, it's a huge thing, you know, and, it's hard and it's hard, you know, I don't know. Nick Lovette used to work for the English FA and he's been a podcast guest. And he said to me something that I was stuck. said that I was stuck. said, tend, we tend to value the things that we can measure because it's hard to measure the things that we value. And, and I think that's a really important thing to always keep in mind.

Mark Carroll (: 43:48

But it's not tangible, isn't it? I think that's the thing. It's hard to measure.

John (: 44:14

Is we have to find ways to measure it or just know that sometimes it's just a feeling that it feels right around here or, or it doesn't. And that's a pretty consistent thing from podcast guests of the most successful coaches is like sort of. When it feels a certain way it's, it's working and you can't like we had this guy, Roy Williams on very famous basketball coach, coach Michael Jordan and.

And, they're very successful on the NCA level. wonderful man. And he said in his 36 years as a head coach, he never looked at the scoreboard in the first half. He wanted to, okay, what does the game feel like? Are we defending or are we getting in people's faces? Are we transitioning hard? Are we passing the ball? He's like, I don't, the, the scoreboard can lie.

Right. And so I want to know how this feels in this moment, the way the team is working together. And then I'll look at the scoreboard and he's like, you know, there was games where I was like, you know, my, my assistant coach was like, coach, we're up 20, you know, and he's like, ah, it's not working. And then other ones, he's like, we're losing, but like, nah, this is, this is all clicking. And so I think we just have to be careful. And sometimes you gotta, until we figure out a way to measure it.

You know, trust my gut that this feels right. That players are training, that they're learning, that they're treating each other well, that people want to be here, that there's joy, that there's competitiveness, whatever all the things you want in there. Sometimes you just be like, yeah, that feels right in this moment. This, this is good. And sometimes the scoreboard is going to work out and sometimes it's not, but if we get all that other stuff, right.

Mark Carroll (: 45:58

Hmm.

John (: 46:01

And we train really well and we call it Jerry and I call it win the day. we win the day enough days in a row, we're probably going to win more games than we lose if we happen to have the ability to do so.

Mark Carroll (: 46:11

And there was a point there that I wanted to come back to, but just on that we said at the end. So, winning the day, is that about not getting caught up in the, it sounded interesting to me, because most times you hear, and I might have misinterpreted this, but when you say that, we often hear about long-term development and thinking long-term, but is this actually about not, is this about just focusing on today? What's that ideal win the day?

John (: 46:35

Yeah, I mean, you can't have long-term development without short-term development and short-term engagement, right? So, the day is like, how do we make the most out of every practice, right? How do we create the most focused competitive environment that's a great teaching environment that makes people want to come back, right? And if we do that,

Mark Carroll (: 46:47

sure.

John (: 46:58

Yeah. I mean, I've walked in with big universities, you know, and, and, and said to the teams that they want to turn their program around and ask the team, okay. Honestly with me, we had five training sessions last week. How many of them were truly 100 % as, as competitive as they could be as focus as they could be as, you know,

Whatever our standard was. Right. And I had this team again at a very big famous university say to me, two, two out of five were at the level. I'm like, well, that's where we got to start. Right. So that's what win the day means. You won the day. It's 40 % of the time. If you want to get better, if you want to win on Saturday, you got to start winning the day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Right. Cause everyone wants to win on Saturday. So that's what we mean is winning the day is, being really process focused and focused on all the things that I control every single day to get the most out of it. And it doesn't mean I feel great every day, but do I give what I'm capable of giving it? Even when I feel like crap or even if I have two midterms or even if my kids home sick or whatever it is.

Mark Carroll (: 47:52

Hmm.

Hmm.

John (: 48:18

That's winning, that's winning the day.

Mark Carroll (: 48:21

You know, and I need to explain that. I mean, it's comparable. A lot of times we're having to be done some psychosocial workshops with players more on the players end of it. talk about, it's actually, was a video I showed and it was Arsene Wenger talking a little bit about, you know, if you're only training well on the Monday and the Wednesday, but you're not on the Tuesday and the Thursday or the Friday, it's like goodbye. And it's a wee bit around, you know, there's a difference between turning up. There's a difference between showing up and turning up.

John (: 48:41

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 48:48

everyone can show up, but are you turning up ready to train? And it's quite nice actually that you've sort of built a bridge there around how the coach can also prepare and the mentality coaches maybe should look towards that. Just the coaches get, is this then a question about coaches not being too comfortable or is it just more about, I mean, sometimes it is just the case of that, isn't it? We want to be not comfortable in that we feel under pressure, but is there something to that? I think what can often happen, particularly where you don't have a mentor or people

maybe able to spot these things in your practice. It's very easy to get into a place of complacency, find. But I much prefer to have someone watching me as a coach, I find, because it keeps me feeling like I need to push to the standards that I ironically set to the players. We don't always correct that on ourself.

John (: 49:32

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that also this goes back to the modeling thing, right? If you're asking your players to get out of their comfort zone and challenge themselves and assess their performance and do it again, then you need to have your performance assessed, right? And that can be as simple as, you know, when I, my, last group I coached was my son's group and

You know, I turned them over when they were 16, 17, that was the last year. But by then I'd been with them for a while because we'd gone through COVID and you know, a lot of times they would handle halftime or whatever. They grab the board. They, they do that. But in training, if it wasn't working and be like, Hey guys, this is not working how I thought it would be. What do you think needs to change? Like is the space too small? Is the space too big? Are the numbers wrong? Is it.

It's very easy as a coach to default to, the players just don't care. But that's usually not the reason why something's not working. Right. And, and so giving them a little bit of ownership in there, is one way to say it's not working. Hey, how can we work together to make it better? And then number two, you know, like I would always bring out people to assess my practices, not always, but you know, from time to time.

And I would say, and I was very lucky, you know, here where I live, I mean, there's a former U S national team head coach, you know, who, you know, he would come and, know, I'm like, Hey, let me, you know, come watch my practice or whatever, and then give some feedback and introduce them to the team and, and, and do that. And it's like, if, if I'm sitting there trying to get better, the players can't be like, well, then I don't want to get like, you know, it's again, it's this demonstration to them that.

We're all on a learning journey together. And if I model that and model some humility and some vulnerability and some learning, then they're more likely to do it as well. so I would say complacency is not being open to being challenged, not going and getting further education, not trying to layer something new into your coaching or your player interaction or your parent engagement.

That's complacency and pretty soon players, players feel that.

Mark Carroll (: 51:53

I get the sense John as well when you speak that, where implicitly or otherwise that there seems to be a value in that seeing you around self-awareness. this something that is coached?

John (: 52:03

I think it's

all that. I mean, that's the, that's the start to quote Joe Erman again, to be a better coach, be a better you. Right. And so it always starts whenever I do coach education, I always start with self-awareness. Like you have to know yourself, what makes you tick, what gives you energy? what, what are the things that are your strengths? What are the things that limit you? If you don't know those, then.

You know, you're, you're building a house on sand, right? But if you know, foundationally, Hey, this is really what I'm really good at. And these are the things that I have to be way more intentional about so that they come out. Now, now you're, now you're coaching at a, at a, at another level.

Mark Carroll (: 52:47

I can see the link there between like even we give the example of us, it's the kids. The self-aware coach is going to be more introspective there and consider well what role do I have to play in the kids behavior? And I don't, and I never think, and it's something that that resonates with myself, I never think it's about trying to get coaches to be on their own back. I don't think it is quite that, isn't it? But I think there's power that comes with accountability. If you hold yourself to account, now all of a sudden the world's back under your control.

You're no longer as a coach victim to circumstance. I think that's a positive feeling, because a lot of times coaches got uptight about that and naturally we need to embrace our flaws in order to figure out how to get through them, isn't it?

John (: 53:22

Yeah.

Yeah. And for me, what really, when I even shifted more in this direction was actually during COVID where I live, when kids were allowed to play again, they were supposed to wear masks on their face. I don't know what the UK was like or whatever, but it was summer and it was hot. Right. And so you're on

Mark Carroll (: 53:51

More or less the same.

John (: 53:58

You know, 4G turf and it's 95 degrees. Don't ask me to convert to Celsius for you, you know, and, the turf is 10 degrees warmer and the kids are trying to breathe through masks and all that. And so I got very good in that moment of, of saying to kids, okay, how can I restructure training so that it's at the appropriate level? So, so my training didn't look like it would have.

Mark Carroll (: 54:05

Ha ha ha.

John (: 54:28

I was very big on, I'm very big on having all players moving and engaged and whatever. But in that moment I would say, okay, we're going to do some sort of Rondo here and there's two groups and maybe it's a, just make up a number or some sort of six V three or whatever it is. Well, the second team, the defensive team, instead of having a six V three here and a six V three here, I just had six playing. Right.

with maybe three of their teammates standing out and then the nine defenders and just, all right, go defend for 20 seconds. Right. And then step out the far side, pull your mask down, catch your breath, walk back. And so, and, but I was constantly asking the kids, how was that? Was that too long? Was that too short? How can we, you know, I was getting feedback from them on the appropriateness from a health perspective, but it really.

reinforced for me that, if I get feedback from them on why is this working or not working, then they're more likely to buy into the solution and practice is going to get better if it's not very good.

Mark Carroll (: 55:31

Yeah.

And why do you think, because I mean, the logical explanation, it's in the word, it's logical. It doesn't seem like that would be contentious or difficult for a coach to do. like, always say this, like, I I'm a coach myself and coaching is very postural sometimes. I always think this, we're quite insecure creatures, if you will. And I think that's the hurdle, isn't it? Because I think as a coach educator, you're trying to get...

coaches to recognise that, you know, the criticism you're receiving or if it's not me giving you the criticism of what you did, maybe give yourself, it's not to say that that's a reflection on your worth or value. It's actually, again, it's how you spin it, it's actually the gateway to you getting better. I don't, think coaching, I think coaches are very cagey about, certainly like power sharing, because it's often about how does that then reflect on my role as the leader and how infallible I'm meant to project myself to be.

I just wonder, even in your own career, John, as a coach, do you find to have legitimacy to a degree as well? Let's face it, we can't always be completely vulnerable and completely open. Sometimes there is times where we need to show a certain level of assertiveness, but we need to pick when we can't be all the time.

John (: 56:47

Totally.

Totally. And I think, think, you know, vulnerability without competence, forget about it. Right. Vulnerability when you have a lot of competence is a strength. Right. And then a hundred percent assertiveness, eventually a decision has to be made. Right. It's, still, it's not a, it's not a democracy.

Mark Carroll (: 56:58

Yeah.

John (: 57:12

Either eventually, you know, right? I'm the coach. I have to make the hard decisions because my job depends on how we do. And I think the best people find the right blend of that. And the right blend of that changes from, again, who's in front of you. You know, I mean, let's talk about another podcast guest. had Phil Jackson on, right? Legendary coach. Yeah. Chicago.

Mark Carroll (: 57:34

I've listened to that one, that was incredible, I loved that

episode.

John (: 57:38

Chicago

Bulls, LA Lakers, right? But he talks about a story on there, right? Where they, the Bulls who's won some championships that are now, you know, down a little bit, you know, decide to go get Dennis Rodman, right? And, you know, just look up Dennis Rodman. If you don't know basketball, I think a lot of people know who he is, but we asked him, you know, it was like, how did you know that your team could, you know,

Mark Carroll (: 57:41

Hey.

Yep.

John (: 58:03

taken Dennis Rodman, who was not going to live by the rules of the NBA or whatever. And he said, you know what? We had a bunch of adults in that locker room. He's like, we weren't a bunch of 23 year old rookies. We had, you know, Michael Jordan was 31 and Scottie Pippen was 30. And, you know, he went through a list of people. like, we had senior players that were like, you know what? We can control his worst impulses. He's going to do some weird stuff.

but he'll help us win. And so it's also that recognition of a coach is what is this group in front of me need? Right? Like I talk to coaches all the time about, know what? You've got great leaders in your locker room. You can seed a lot of your power and decision-making to them. They got it handled, right? Versus I don't see the leadership in the locker room. You're going to have to drive this.

until people step up. And the coach recognized that from season to season that might change. That's good coaching.

Mark Carroll (: 59:09

Do you what I thought was a meat to see that episode? I remember listening to it as well. Another thing that I took from Phil Jackson, I found really powerful and it's something I thought about for a while, there's always this, there's always this, we always say, no, that players need to care about the team, you know, and ultimately the coach's job is to create a good team. But I always felt the way that, that like the Dennis Rodman is a case study was handled like in order to get buy-in for players who are

innately selfish and not in any criticism to players because players care about themselves more than they care about a team. And I don't think we need to be caught up as coaches about the route towards instilling good teamwork being about just because you should be a good teammate. think like you need to find what's going to help the athlete as an individual and let them understand why helping a team helps them as an individual. don't think, and I felt like when you see the way that Dennis Rodman was managed,

I think there was even stories around what he required in so far as turning up late to the court and stuff like that. You could say, but your teammates are here, we need to show camaraderie and this and that. But again, it's about managing people and people are individual. And again, maybe the best route to helping your team get forward is managing the individuals and helping them get what they want out of sport as individuals. I don't see the issue with that.

John (: 1:00:29

Yeah.

And, and again, for someone listening, Dennis Rodman is a 32, 33 year old grown man at this point, right? With this recognition that he isn't going to be on the court two hours before the game and he's not going to do that. But as Phil said in the podcast, he said, you know, what did Dennis do? He went and the exercise bike watching video.

watching where the rebound is going to come. said, there was no more prepared player on that team than Dennis Rodman. He was the most prepared player I've coached. so, so as a teammate going, you know, he's not here for war or silly shoot around. doesn't care versus no, he cares deeply. He's just not at the shoot around now.

these are men playing professional sports, right? When we're working with kids, I think we're pushing back in that behavior. not allowing, we don't want, you know, we want the preparation and focus that Dennis has maybe with a little more understanding of what matters to the team. But this is the art of coaching is like, we'd all love the player who's

high impact and easy to manage. Right. And obviously the low impact, hard to manage. we, we just get rid of, right. But a lot of times the most impactful player is high impact, hard to manage. So how many of them can you have on your team? How can you shape behavior so that they buy in and, how can you, and when the, when you have a high impact, hard to manage,

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:57

and

Mm-hmm.

John (: 1:02:14

young player, you're really pushing back and trying to teach them the behaviors that you're bringing are hurting your career or hurting your advancement. If you can do this, but at the same time, you have to appreciate, think their, inherent belief in stubbornness of I'm going to do things my way. Right.

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:38

And is it, but is it just to play those advocate, I suppose, is it also around understanding the context of where they are? Like I work in Academy football, for example, and as much as I can tell players about you need to have teamwork because this, this and that, the most powerful message or at least the most harmonious message with what the environment actually signals back to them is that they are individuals within a team.

judged as individuals within a team and therefore I think in those contexts where the environment is, regardless of what I'm saying, that's the environment's messaging. Is there something to coach leaning in on that to at least show that look, we're developing you as an individual within a team but showing teamwork shows more of you as an individual. So it's kind of like, you know, meet athletes where they're at sometimes or at least, know, not, it's not necessarily trying to build something that is idealistic at times. I think you can, you know,

And I just wonder how you've had any experience of that or that resonates.

John (: 1:03:34

Right.

And so, you know, you could take an example of a young Leo Messi who tries to beat five people every time he gets the ball. And if he was coached to say, Hey, this is about the team, pass the ball. wouldn't have Leo Messi. Right. And so, so when, so you're within that. I told, I agree with you that you can say, you know, we're coaching you as an individual because

Mark Carroll (: 1:03:50

Hmm.

John (: 1:04:00

You or he or he might sign the first team contract. We're not moving up as a team. Right. But at the same time, what are the qualities that make you desirable to that first team environment? And I think that's don't be a player who says, what do I get? Be someone who says, what, what can I give?

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:14

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

John (: 1:04:24

Right? Be someone who is, is liked and meets the standard and is respected in the locker room and not someone who's a jerk and doesn't live the right lifestyle. And so I think this is the type of thing because you're right. You know, you might be so incredibly gifted that the coach is going to look the other way. Right. But if you're not.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:24

Hmm, take that point.

John (: 1:04:51

And the coach has a choice between this guy and this guy. And this guy is all about the team and people, and this one's all about himself. you know, it causes trouble. They're picking this guy.

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:03

Yeah, that's a great point you make that actually because now you're making me reflect on well there has been players where they haven't been the best players in the team technically but man they're just good teammates and that does show them really well and in the law of averages that's probably like where there's a decision to be made between kind of what you say like how you make its low impact then all of a sudden they inverses that kid who maybe isn't as good technically but you know they're just a good person does that maybe come back to you?

I suppose the values that I feel come out very strongly when you speak John around just the lifestyle and the things that, know, the moral character of, you know, what coaching is meant to be about, I suppose. This is, transcending that environment.

John (: 1:05:42

Well, yeah, and

if 98 % of these kids aren't going to turn pro, but they're going to be part of teams their entire life, well, then what are we giving them if we're ignoring all their non-team behavior? And again, this isn't advocating, beating someone's creativity and sense of self.

out of them. think that's wrong. I think that's an important characteristic to make it through to the next level, this self-belief and this facing your fear and the shame and all the things that come with it. I truly believe that that is really important. So the job of the coach is not to create robots, but the job of the coach is to also guide and say,

Is this behavior, right? Is being too cool for school and showing up late or not thinking you work hard. How is that getting you closer to your dream of being a professional athlete? Right? Is that, is that, how is that endearing you when you're 16 years old and you're asked to go train with the first team? How is that endearing you to them? Is that getting you closer to that or would this behavior get

get you closer to that.

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:01

So see on that point, actually, John, so around the of the superpowers that kids have, like what's their strength? Do, in your experience, do we have enough of that? Like, so how do you, I don't know what the state of the play is in the States, but even just generally speaking, I know you travel a lot for work as well. As coaching, do you ever find that, sometimes there's a deficit for you in coaching and it's always about fits and things. But like, you give the example of Lionel Messi, like if...

No, we, you know, always try and think, if we try and improve players to all levels, the best player's just gonna be this flat, moderate person. You know, but we need players who are just really good at what they do. They have that one strength in me. And maybe we just need to make them better at that because that's the whole point of a team, it's synergy, isn't it? How easy is that to get across? What's your experience of that or observations from your time as a coach educator, I wonder?

John (: 1:07:53

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's Steven Rolnick's word, right? Don't be a deficit detective all the time. Like that's very easy to be as a coach. And so helping your players recognize their strengths and work on your strength as well. If you have an incredible left foot, we shouldn't say don't ever use your left foot. Like, like let's make it the greatest left foot of all time. Right.

But it doesn't mean that your right foot's only for standing on. There's a level of competency that you should develop there, certainly in the modern game. Again, thinking of football of like, if you can, if you only use your left, they're going to coach that and scout that and whatever. And if you're messy, you get away with it. And if you're everyone else, you don't. Right. And so, so I think this is.

You know, plus again, if you're constantly told as a human being, this is what's wrong, this is what's wrong. This is where you're falling short versus like, man, you're really good at this. Use that. and, so again, this is the art of coaching. How do we help kids recognize and improve the things they're already good at while also saying, I need minimum competency in these other areas.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:47

and

Mm.

John (: 1:09:01

And then recognizing, what's holding them back, right? If I have a December birthday kid who's not strong and a little bit small and undeveloped, I can't change when he's going to grow. Right. And so I can't say, well, you need to do this, this and this. Like, sorry, we're just waiting on mother nature for that one. versus, versus like, Hey, you've got this and this is wonderful, but don't forget about this.

Mark Carroll (: 1:09:28

Hmm, so I completely agree John. Before we start to kind of wrap up John, I'm curious to know just in case there's anything we haven't captured in so far as the trends in messaging that you have observed, think just through the Way of Champions podcast, like over 400 episodes, is there anything outside of relationship? I think that's, I mean, that I think is the finding in itself that they seem to all come back to the relationship, yet that's the most controllable.

not saying it's simple, but it is the most actionable element of coaching. Maybe we made it too complicated. Is there anything outside of that or perhaps even something that you foresee now from just observation and just, again, the extent of work that you do in this space as a coach educator for how coaching may evolve going forward? What's the next thing you feel that coaches need to get their head around or need to start to factor in to their kind of mental toolkit, if you will?

John (: 1:10:18

Yeah. I mean, we, we touch on, I think the big one, which is the importance that coaching is a relationship game. and it's both your relationship with your athletes and their parents, but then also fostering a positive team environment. Those relationships matter a ton. Right. So, so that's one number two is just intentionality. Like be really intentional about these sort of things. Right. There don't.

Just sort of, be intentional about commenting and connecting with players, be intentional about your education and your development as a coach, be intentional about communication and the environment you create. And then the last one would just be curiosity. I would say a very common denominator every time we get off a call with a Steve Kerr or someone like that is got any good books you're reading? Any good, right? So there's this.

Curious. They're never done. The scariest coach is the one who's done learning. Right. And what I find is that very few of the people at the top, none that I've met, but I'm sure there's some there. None of they're not, they're not done learning. They're always open to what's next. What's the next thing that'll give me a leg up. And oftentimes again, it's not within the X's and O's of their sport. They're looking outside of their sport to other sports or other

Mark Carroll (: 1:11:26

you

John (: 1:11:40

areas of research so that they can get more out of people. And so that would be my sort of parting message is, you know, build relationships, be intentional and never stop learning.

Mark Carroll (: 1:11:44

Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it's super cool in a sense, even that last point you made there about like reading and you don't even need to necessarily be constrained to just reading about coaching or sport. I think more and more there's things in the business world, there's things from, I sometimes talk a little bit, actually I think non-fiction, sorry, fictional, know, novels, they often have like a emotional theme to them that I think helps coaches understand the human condition more. And again, we're talking about emotional intelligence.

John (: 1:12:08

Yeah? Fiction. Yeah?

Yeah.

or just get you out of your head for a while and

Mark Carroll (: 1:12:20

Hi.

John (: 1:12:20

hit the reset button, which is important as well.

Mark Carroll (: 1:12:23

So cool. Now, do you know what, John, you've actually, my next question was going to be we normally try and wrap up now with kind of free coach hats, but I think you've already gave it there. So, honestly, it's been absolutely superb having you, John. I know I've been a bit of a cheerleader for you all the way through here around the Way of Champions podcast. I just need to say that to any lead, to our listeners. John's podcast is much better than mine. Just please listen to it. It's brilliant. How else could people that are tuning in?

John (: 1:12:32

Perfect.

Mark Carroll (: 1:12:51

connect with you and find out a bit more about your work because you have also written three books I think, you're an author, there you go, sorry. So, you want to maybe give a little bit of a plug to some of that and just to see how we can get you connected.

John (: 1:12:55

Four books now, four books. Yeah.

Yeah. So,

the mothership is changingthegameproject.com. That's the main website and everything. And then we have sort of a premium members area there that allows you to, you know, get all our stuff really organized in one place. Kind of, this is brand new, just kind of put the, you know, here's a coaches section with the best blog posts and the best, interviews and,

coaching book that I wrote in: 2019

Mark Carroll (: 1:13:53

I get it.

John (: 1:13:56

And then Jerry, Jerry and I did one in 2023 called the champion teammate, which, is really how to be a great teammate. And that one was written for sort of middle school and high school and university age athletes, little three page chapters and everything on like, you know, here's a theme on how to connect or compete or lead. And then here's questions that you can go through as an individual or in a team discussion. And so those are sort of the, the two.

big books there. And like you said, the Way of Champions podcast, which is on Apple and Spotify and also on YouTube and everything. You can find it there and digest it however you like.

Mark Carroll (: 1:14:36

Yeah, superb. I love that you've actually, I would call it like the audio bits, like that's taken away. And it's just, I think most coaches, they've got to the reflection in the car ride home. there you go. That's the solution, John. So, John, honestly, it's been a blast. It's a privilege for me just to get you on. I'm a huge admirer of your work and just thank you, I suppose, in the global coaching community, just for the work that you do. mean, it really doesn't just touch in America.

John (: 1:14:47

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:15:01

You see the impact here. There's a wee guy from Scotland who knows about it. There's loads of people that know about it. And I just really support the mission that you're doing. And it's something we're trying to replicate here on a much smaller scale in terms of the labourers of sports coaching. And I just, yeah, I think it's superb. So thank you.

John (: 1:15:17

Perfect. Well, I've enjoyed this conversation.

You're a good interviewer and this is really the time flew by. So thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate you having me on.

Mark Carroll (: 1:15:27

Thank you. And for those that are listening, I hope you found this conversation nearly as useful as I did. So thank you. Thanks again, John, and we will see you next time. Thank you.

John (: 1:15:37

Thanks.