When to coach, teach, or train, with Dennie Wilson

Dennie Wilson (: 00:00

What is training? Because is it...

Am I a trainer? Am I this? Some companies say, you dancers do daily training. Some it's daily class. You know, those subtle nuances in language. And I think that's where going back to when I sort of came to coaching, it then really made me go back to kind of go, okay, so what am I doing when I'm teaching? What happens when people are training?

Mark Carroll (: 00:11

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 00:23

There's elements of training, there's elements of teaching, there's elements of coaching, and there are elements of mentoring as well,

Mark Carroll (: 00:30

Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Labours of Sports Coaching. So in today's episode I was joined by Denny Wilson who is a dance artist and educator at the Royal Academy of Dance. It was a really great conversation, quite alien to me in so far as starting to understand the world of dance and ballet but also looking at it through the prism of coaching.

coaching as teaching, teaching as coaching, and you might wonder what I'm getting at with that, if you listen into the episode, we get into talking about the different roles within a space that we might call coaching, where at times we coach, at times we teach, at times we train, and each of those different roles that the leader would inhabit are gonna come with implications for how we move forward in our pedagogy, how it's received by those that were

instructing and different implications about the sharing of power and all those sorts of things. Now, Denny's came from a vocation or a sport or an art, whatever way you want to call it, has a lot of tradition and a more more direct approach to coaching. And actually, think there's a lot of lessons that can be learned in the evolution of dance.

and how it's moving into something that's more around individual and around expression. But there's a lot that even if you're in a sport that you feel already has that, there's still a lot that you can learn from this, particularly as we get into talking about the sort of underpinning assumptions there and some of the the conundrums that we can get ourselves into actually, for good reasons when we start to try and piece together why we do things the way we do them. So really insightful.

I think this is both for people who are in the dance world, but also for people who are outside of it, who want to get an insight into the way that the dance is taught or coached, as I say. And it's just, yeah, there's a whole lot to take from it, from someone who's been in this space for so, long and is a real veteran practitioner. So really, really great episode and I hope you enjoy it. Let's get into it.

Mark Carroll (: 02:59

So, Danny, how are you? It's great to have you on the show.

Dennie Wilson (: 03:02

Thank you very much. I think I'm all right. Time will tell.

Mark Carroll (: 03:04

Yeah, I know.

I think I need to say it any time anyone asks me how I'm doing. I think is. Everything's live. It's dynamic. So obviously we're going to chat about your paper today. Let's get into a wee bit of the sort of motivations behind the paper to start, because I'm always intrigued as to why someone, you know, goes into the endeavor of actually conducting research or thinking things through a deep level. you know, just considering this is positioned within dance and it's a

commentary piece isn't it on the state of dancing as a teaching or coaching process depending on how we chicken or the egg what comes first here. Why did you actually want to write this paper? Maybe we can start from there.

Dennie Wilson (: 03:43

Yeah, it came out of my doctoral study. And I think also, although it says 2022, it's kind of written in 2020, where we in lockdown, although I think most of us, although we were in lockdown, we were working very hard from home. But I would have been at the point where I would have gone out to actually do some case study research within vocational dance training.

professional dance environments. And of course, I couldn't do that. So I then had to think about what could I do? And obviously the ideas behind why I was going out to do the case study research and the data collection all came from, I suppose, that point where you're writing your thesis

proposal for approval, so that part of getting that approval and all the ethics and things. And so I suppose it was a kind of discussion between myself and my supervisor in regard to what could I get on with, you know, productively. And I suppose all of the things that are in the paper were in my head. So it was actually a really interesting process and reading it back.

Mark Carroll (: 04:32

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 04:56

I can recognise that in a way it enabled me to get everything that was in my head down into something that was visual. But also I think in the way that I write, I speak a lot out loud when I'm writing so that I hear what I'm saying. So I'm listening to myself differently, if that makes sense. And that kind of helps my...

Mark Carroll (: 05:06

Mmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 05:23

questioning. So I think it wasn't that it was, you know, I was motivated, I felt very strongly at the point, you know, in terms of I don't think anyone goes into PhD study lightly, you feel very strongly about something. And I felt very strongly about coaching and the role of coaching within dance. And also what was happening within the profession at the time.

Mark Carroll (: 05:24

Hmm.

Mm.

Dennie Wilson (: 05:48

you know, within vocational training and how things were evolving and particularly in the physiological side of dance science. But I just felt there was a, though there were papers and research, you know, being done in relation to the psychological side of the dancer, there was, that was related to teaching, it wasn't related to coaching. And

Mark Carroll (: 05:57

you

Hmm. Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 06:12

The coaching strand for me came from engaging with coaching from a very different perspective, not coaching within dance, but actually coaching within the business world. Quite by accident, finding myself on a performance coaching sort of training program, a couple of days of CPD, I suppose you would call it.

Mark Carroll (: 06:24

Okay, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 06:37

and wanting to find something to engage with and seeing something on performance coaching. And my head was in, okay, dance, performance and coaching and then went along and found myself in a room with many people that were in charge of or working in HR departments. And it was about different sorts of or a different approach, coaching through a different lens.

Mark Carroll (: 06:57

Mmm.

Do you find when you're sometimes outside of that sort of bubble, and this isn't even just a bubble of dance or even coaching, but just in a business world, or it's not even, just outside of sport or physical, it'll be interesting the way people approach things that could be completely different to how you view things, just in the sense that it's longer as an embodied thing or anything that we have to relate back to how we move physically, isn't it? That's quite cool in a sense.

There must be lot of abstraction as well you're having to kind of move through and then transfer back.

Dennie Wilson (: 07:34

Yeah, think for me it was a real, because I've worked as a professional dancer, I worked for so long and a freelance dance artist. So, you know, I was with companies, I was with this, I was with that, I was going from one thing to the other. It was also, it sounds strange, but it was a real, at such an advanced stage, it was a real kind of insight into the way that organisations and companies

that aren't necessarily artistic, know, small companies or working within the freelance world, how they are actually structured in regard to looking after employees and overseeing employment and development. So it was a real, right, okay. I've been off doing this for the last 30 years, but you know, people in other worlds,

of course there are so many worlds, it was really interesting to kind go, right, okay, this is how this world approaches this. But I think what I really enjoyed was actually how welcome these nine other people made me feel when you're all kind of introducing yourself and you realise you come from a completely different environment.

Mark Carroll (: 08:27

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

So what makes you then, so when you're talking about different worlds then, so what, terms of leading us back to the central premise of your actual doctoral thesis and the research and your applied practice, have you had a sense of feeling like you're in two different worlds or has dance been positioned for a long time as a teaching activity or as a coaching activity? How can we, we want to now kind of build a bit of momentum in that space around, you know, helping us understand the rationale for the work?

Dennie Wilson (: 08:50

Huh?

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 09:18

is what's the, I'd be quite intrigued to know, I think for listeners, maybe aren't in dance, but also those that are, to get your perspective on the history of dance as a pedagogical practice, maybe not as a coaching practice, and then we can move into that.

Dennie Wilson (: 09:23

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I think what came from that particular, those two days, is I had to do some written work and somehow it introduced me to the book, The Inner Game of Tennis, which I think most sports people, you know, and I was absolutely, and I loved tennis when I was a teenager. I'd spend, you know, hours

in the back garden with a brick wall, sort fantasizing that I was at Wimbledon. So I was reading the Galway's words and then just kind of thinking, okay, hang on a minute. I'm this really interesting. How does that work in dance? When you're talking about not giving instructions, but being aware.

Mark Carroll (: 09:57

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 10:12

not giving technical instructions, giving awareness instructions. And I really started to... Okay, it really made me think about my own practice where I had definitely been, followed that tradition of being a professional dancer and in a way falling into teaching. I was interested in teaching. I've always enjoyed working with people. I was in companies where as well as performing, we deliver workshops in the community.

So teaching has always been part of my world as well, even from that kind of tradition of being a 13 year old helping their ballet teacher with younger children as well. So I found myself thinking, okay, how might this work in dance? I'm really questioning the fact that, well, I feel like...

But I have to give technical instruction, know, that's my job. And at the Royal Academy of Dance where I am now, I got permission to develop a small research project with some students who I took it from the perspective of block. and again, over time when I've worked in vocational training, you hear teachers talking...

you know, supportively about a particular student where they're saying, I'm saying this and I'm saying this and someone else is saying, I'm saying it as well. And they're not, nothing is happening. And so I approached it from working with students who also felt that they were receiving feedback from teachers, you know, a number of different teachers, they were receiving the same feedback, but somehow they weren't

Mark Carroll (: 11:35

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 11:52

And whilst they understood the feedback and understood what they should do, should be doing, it wasn't, they weren't progressing. it just, something wasn't being successful. So I developed a small research project and some students who were feeling like that volunteered. I think I called it sort of coaching the inner game, the inner game of dance or dancing the inner game or something. I can't remember.

Mark Carroll (: 12:16

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 12:17

probably 2018-19. And that was, I think that was, I didn't know the students, I didn't teach them at the time that we were doing the project. And I did a number, know, devised a number of one-on-one sessions with the students. And going into the studio, sort of saying to myself, right, Denny, you're not allowed to give technical advice. Ooh, how does that work? How does that work?

Mark Carroll (: 12:19

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 12:41

And so it made me really examine my practice and the way that I worked with, did I speak at, you know, the amount of information that I was giving rather than the what could be drawn from, what could be discussed, how could I help students discover. And so went in, you know, guided by the in a game of tennis.

Mark Carroll (: 13:00

you

Dennie Wilson (: 13:06

and devising some awareness instructions. And I was absolutely amazed at how quickly the students came back. You know, we did think of an intervention every three weeks and in between they were reflecting on their other classes. And when they came back after the first intervention, just how quickly they felt they were making progress.

Mark Carroll (: 13:23

Hmm

Dennie Wilson (: 13:32

And.

Mark Carroll (: 13:32

And

how do you think that was, or rather why would that structure surprise you? Is that due to the traditional elements of how dance is normally taught, or is it the curated sort of theme of dance in the way that, know, one of the things that I found intriguing then when I was reading your paper was it is interesting and I think you've done such a superb job of communicating just the language that's used.

despite the fact we're dealing with humans, with people, there's things like performances or curations, and I found that strange as a word to pick up on, like how you hear these words that you would think are more to do with an artifact of some sort. it's like the performance is done through the athlete or the dancer rather than the dancer creating a performance. And I just wondered how that went.

hand in hand with this new approach where actually you're reversing it and the dancers creating the performance.

Dennie Wilson (: 14:28

Yeah,

think it's what became really clear because I interviewed, you know, I spoke with the students to begin with, to ask them about what they understood about how they learned, what sort of learners they were, how did they process information and it just became so apparent and it's so interesting, know, dance is such a physical form.

When we talk about flow state, you want to be in this moment where nothing is interfering. And I think every dancer has experienced that at some point. It's a like the Holy Grail, you're then kind of like, you're searching for it again and again. But I was absolutely amazed, shocked, isn't a word, because I can identify that. But I think...

What was interesting was observing the dancers, student dancers describing what was going on in their head whilst they were trying to apply what they would refer to as a correction. I would try and, you know, kind of say feedback. And, you know, in maybe one to second window of time, they would be thinking a myriad of things.

Mark Carroll (: 15:30

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 15:40

arm here, head there, eyes here, breathe, foot, duh, where is this, this placement, that placement, the other place, so many things. And listening, no, observing the students listening to themselves explain that process. And you kind of, there was points where we just kind of look at one another and go, that's an awful lot to be thinking about. How about...

Mark Carroll (: 15:54

you

Does

that go against as well the state of know, automaticity and fluidity you want to see in a dance performance? It's probably not meant to be so constrained probably.

Dennie Wilson (: 16:11

Well,

think it's also, and this goes, know, when I was saying, but how can I not give technical instructions? If I see something, then I should give feedback that that's my job, that's my role. and actually, if I don't notice it, then that's terrible, you know, so I think there's all those kinds of perfectionist things that come in from dance in terms of the way that you approach teaching. it so

It then became sort of talking with the students, okay, what are you aware of? And when they were doing all of that, they were kind of like, well, I'm aware of my thought process, not aware of their physical being, aware of their thought process, and then trying to make that thought process physical. So we then worked on, well, we then, it was then...

Okay, well we know that you're locked in this and this is to do with maybe they keep getting feedback about control of turnout or strength of standing on the supporting leg or the position of their pelvis where their lumbar spine is kind of arched. they're not, use your core, do this, lengthen, all of these things in terms of correct pelvic alignment. So it was then talking with them about, well.

There are all of these different things that you're thinking about. one of those could you think, which one, just one thing would you pick that you think, you know, think, and again, that's you think, that you feel that if you're thinking about, or, you know, being in your physical body, which one of those might...

work, you know, it was a process trial and error, but then also then trying to think about not thinking about what to do, but thinking about what to be aware of. So it might just have been, you know, be aware of what you're seeing in the space, you know, it may actually be that they wanted to work on that, you know,

Mark Carroll (: 17:52

Hmm.

Okay, yeah.

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 18:13

where the placement of their working legs, sorry, in terms of turnout, in terms of the leg, if they were at the bar or if they were doing a pirouette or if they were trying to do an arabesque and a ponche, where the leg is going up and they're thinking about height and balance and maybe actually just be aware of where you're looking or aware of where you're breathing.

Mark Carroll (: 18:17

Mm-hmm.

And can they be given any autonomy about how to decide on what to look for or is that probably still on the part of the dance teacher if we're trying to apply this new approach to guiding the right direction? I'm curious on that because it seems like you're opening up a lot of other senses that tell how for more individuality maybe in the training.

Dennie Wilson (: 18:47

Yeah, yeah

and I think that's a really good question because there I was working one-on-one and it was very much not part of their degree study, their technique class where they would generally be in a class with maybe 15, 20 other students. So again that question, so in that

e I'm working with, you know,: 1520

I can't go through that process at all, you know, one on one. I can't do that with 20. So how do I actually do that when I have a class of 15 to 20? And that's where I'm continually evaluating and working around also making decisions about when I'm going into class, where I might be.

involved in teaching because I'm thinking of this process as being a coaching process. So where I'm teaching, where I loosely think of teaching as where I may be going in and setting. I teach contemporary technique rather than ballet. Ballet, there's a codified language, you know, if someone want to say first position, two demi-pliés, a rise of four-player and a four-debris.

every advanced dancer would know what would happen and they'd know what the rhythm of that was. So what would be maybe new about that would be the order in terms of, you know, with contemporary I'd be going in with maybe teaching a new exercise or a new sequence or a new one, shame on, that the dancers have not seen before.

Mark Carroll (: 20:50

So it's teaching, so in your language, teaching. I want to get Clare here first and then I want you to actually come back to something you said just previous. But with teaching, it's about new stimulus. It's like new information introduction versus maybe coachings, whatever they established an understanding and it's in the performance.

Dennie Wilson (: 20:57

Okay.

Yeah, absolutely. so

with the teaching, is new information, maybe new sequences, but based on information that students already have. So they know what a plié is, they know what a four de bras is. Or it may be in terms of in the contemporary field, actually something that they don't know. Or, you know, in the way that I'm constructing an exercise, we may be working on the use of the back.

Mark Carroll (: 21:14

Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 21:32

and for

a few weeks we may have done the exercise in a particular way and then I'll set a new exercise that explores the use of the back in a different way. But they have an understanding or they might not.

Mark Carroll (: 21:46

Do you think, do you know what I found really helpful when I came across that, when you introduced me to that sort of Danny? It's got me to think, and it's something I thought about for a while, but it definitely reminded me of this, not just how the language you use impacts your athletes, but how it impacts your coaching process, or your process, your structural process, whatever, because teaching carries with it connotations that...

have a little bit more to do with understanding the fundamentals of things, or actually behaviorally have a lot more to do with patience, encouraging patience on your part, maybe in terms of how you're working with people. Coaching, if we separate coaching as a way of introducing still to coaching as a way of actually refining or at least directing the use of established still or the use of an established schema or framework or something that's an athlete or dancer knows about,

creates for quite a useful sort of progression of thought, which then in turn influences behaviors. Because I think, obviously I'm stealing a little bit into my own world of coaching here, but a lot of coaches just find coaching in a very unidimensional, like that's what coaching is, and it's always about refinement. I don't think a lot of coaches like to call themselves teachers at any point, whereas actually I think they could do with calling themselves teachers more. And now I know dance is the opposite, because you think dances, they need to call themselves.

Dennie Wilson (: 22:43

Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 23:04

coaches more maybe, but it got me thinking about that.

Dennie Wilson (: 23:06

Well, yeah,

absolutely. And I think, yes, where I've kind of come to with this kind of dialogue in my head is that, yes, when coaching is going on, you may be working with something like, you know, in dance where there is a tradition of coaching is where coaches are working with dancers who have repertoire that is known, they know the repertoire, but they're kind of looking at developing

the dancer's performance of that repertoire. So it is about discovering, the coaching processes bringing about a new discovery for the person who is the dancer. Yeah, and a new discovery for them through not old knowledge, but current knowledge and through the lived experience of, you know, we then go to training. What is training? Because is it...

Mark Carroll (: 23:45

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 23:57

Am I a trainer? Am I this? Some companies say, you dancers do daily training. Some it's daily class. You know, those subtle nuances in language. And I think that's where going back to when I sort of came to coaching, it then really made me go back to kind of go, okay, so what am I doing when I'm teaching? What happens when people are training? Because we call vocational training. You know, you into vocational training.

Mark Carroll (: 24:06

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 24:24

And I just became really a bit sort of overthinking about even wanting to label myself as one or the other. And came to the point where it's like, well, what am I? Who am I? But you know, in terms of, it is the overarching terminology and educator where within, you know, underneath that,

Mark Carroll (: 24:30

Hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 24:46

There's elements of training, there's elements of teaching, there's elements of coaching, and there are elements of mentoring as well, depending. If I'm managing a programme where I've got fellow professional dancers, although they are on an educational programme, there will be elements of mentoring that go on there as well.

Mark Carroll (: 24:53

Yeah.

But

I think, know, as much as it's uncomfortable sometimes for the practitioner to need, just as you've already said, it makes you get a bit, just it's a lot that can overload you a little bit. But again, I think maybe if you can forgive me for using coaches and overarching, you know, the word I'm doing to use here, but coaching is meant to be dynamic and fluid towards different situations. And if we only think of coaching in one way all the time,

Dennie Wilson (: 25:23

Sure.

Mark Carroll (: 25:31

or at least if we're too hell bent on maintaining that word. And I know some people might listen to this and they might wonder, is this just about semantics? it's not just, it and it isn't. It is about semantics in terms of the different meanings of the word. But the meaning of the word isn't just an exercise in semantics, it's an exercise in reflection and progression because we can compartmentalize more elements for practice, can't we? And get better and more elements for practice if we actually recognize that there are.

Dennie Wilson (: 25:42

EAR

Mm-hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 25:59

multiple elements of what we do and multiple versions of what we do. Because I think what you give, it's almost like a parallel universe. I'm thinking of it like that because I'm thinking as I coach, I could be training, coaching and teaching at different times for different groups in different ways.

Dennie Wilson (: 26:01

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah,

and as you were saying that, I was writing down the word values and I think that, you know, every educator, every coach, every trainer, every teacher, however they define themselves or wish to be defined or however they look upon themselves, that will be supported by their own values, a set of values that will have been...

nurtured, you know, that kind of, in terms of who they have encountered as educators in their journey. And, you know, I certainly look back at, you know, and I think everyone does, those sort of key people in your lives at certain points that may have said something or said nothing, you know.

But the behaviours, they may be great behaviours or actually they may have been not very good behaviours, but that have caused me, you know, I can see myself at points in my vocational training or my professional career, know, performing career or in the studio with students that are in a way sort of, you know, crystallising experiences where something has made me, you know,

Mark Carroll (: 27:21

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 27:23

think about well what does that mean for me? Yeah, how does that align with my values of how I want to be treated and therefore how I want to treat other people and and of course that will have come from how I've been treated. Sorry I may have gone off on tangent there.

Mark Carroll (: 27:28

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, no, no, but on

that point, on that point, no, it's absolutely bang on, it? But the next question I have then is like the fact that like we understand that we're not just a product of ourselves, we're a product of interactions, we're a product of our brilliant biographies, the people we meet. Has that probably both served dance, but also maybe been an issue with fin dance? Because one of the things that stood out to me and it got me, what resonated for me and somebody else who coached a different sport.

And I think every sport fights this in its own way. I think it's a demon that we all fight. It's the reproduction of knowledge, but not necessarily the advancement of it. Now obviously we can extend that. And within dance, what I'm trying to say there would be, at least the way I interpret each of the paper was that dance has always been taught one way or instructed by whatever we would call it, but it's been practiced in one way. And the aim seems to be to continue it and perpetuate the status quo, but that...

is probably now, is that clashing heads with more, is that a contemporary thing now that dance is becoming more diverse and it's maybe calling a more creative thought? Is that, we actually currently maybe not preparing dancers or artistic, you know, to actually evolve and be modern? Are we just reproducing the traditional thing in a modern age? And is that what you're fighting against?

Dennie Wilson (: 28:59

Yeah, think it kind of depends where a lot of pedagogical research has been done in dance has been in the higher education sector, where there's more time in the studio or as the studio is laboratory. Whereas I think when you're in the vocational training sector where it is about, okay, students are here,

The aim is they get jobs in companies and where those vocational schools are judged on that. There is a curriculum, there is this to get through, there's that to get through. There is a perceived issue with time and having the time to work in the studio in a more...

Mark Carroll (: 29:43

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 29:49

and I'm talking more about technique. think when you go to choreography, particularly if it's developing of new choreography, then the studio does become more of a laboratory. But within the training room, the studio where you're actually developing the technique of the dancer, and I don't mean just the physiological technique, but the holistic technique,

Mark Carroll (: 30:12

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 30:16

because that is the thing that the dancers take with them into the choreographic studio realm, whether that is choreographed in terms of developing new work or choreographic in regards to learning repertoire, but that kind of going, taking that to then the output, which would be the public performance. So I think where there's most tension in the vocational sector,

And certainly through discussions that I have with people, my students, people that I meet professionally, is that tension of the demand on them to be including this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this in a class and actually being able to apply.

Mark Carroll (: 30:53

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 30:59

pedagogical approaches that are not just that traditional autocratic dialect. And so that, you know, there are educators because, you know, many, many, well, no, all of, and I think this is in terms of as well as that, that chance kind of a couple of days in this kind of coaching performance weird thing, know, what wasn't weird thing, but where I went and did the two day CPD.

Mark Carroll (: 31:03

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 31:24

is of course all my discussions with professional dancers and all the professional dancers that have come on to the programmes that I manage, an absolutely shared, know, and it can be seen as anecdotal because I don't note it down, but in interviewing and talking with those dancers, the reason that they want to teach

is because not only do they want to give back in terms of the rich knowledge and you know all the tradition and the rich knowledge that's been passed down to them but actually they want to change what the experience is in the studio for young dancers.

Mark Carroll (: 32:00

Mm-hmm.

And it's sad to hear, it? Because see what you say, like that, I mean, that happens in football as well, it happens in dance, it in sports where, and it always happens with good intention because I have a curriculum. It's good in many ways because it keeps practice focused and this and that, but it doesn't half prohibit organic coaching. I always think, sometimes I see a lot of the more novice coaches where it has a bit content and getting through the content, but.

we need to stop seeing the content or the curriculum maybe at a more macro level as the be all and end all of coaching. We should be able to plan two or three exercises with the empowerment to stick to exercise one if there's a real potent, meaningful, because it comes down to what is coaching. Is coaching, this is sort of through our conversation and I think I started to see this in the text as well, is I was like, coaching is about meaningful moments. It might be about how we capture the most meaningful moments at any one time and that's.

doesn't naturally harmonize with a curriculum and the pressures of time because it just that I see all the time isn't it? Like if you just it resonates a lot of things you just say that because I'm like that happens everywhere.

Dennie Wilson (: 33:08

Hmm

But it's so interesting, as you're saying that, that's making me think about those moments as coaches, as teachers, sometimes we don't have a control over when that might happen for the individuals that are in front of us. But obviously what we do have control over is how we are facilitating, how we are managing the learning environment as one that encourages, you know,

Mark Carroll (: 33:24

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 33:36

that sense of empowerment and decision making, the student, the dancer, and their decision making. it's just making me think, it's also making me think you're helping me advance my thinking, I think it's advancing, don't know, is that if I'm in a teaching role, but actually something happens for a dancer that creates a new moment for them, then something has happened that is

Mark Carroll (: 33:50

This is

Hmm

Dennie Wilson (: 34:04

coaching related, even though I may have been within a teaching role, perhaps because if I'm within a teaching role, mindful of the way that I'm teaching and the pedagogy and the approaches and being flexible in not having to, I think it's, you know, one of the things that has come out of a lot of the analysis that I've been doing from the data collection is the dancer as product, not process. You know, and,

Mark Carroll (: 34:09

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 34:32

you know, being really mindful of the process.

Mark Carroll (: 34:35

And you can probably

keep me the same terminology when using, you're probably able to coach to teach as well, isn't you? Because the whole idea of allowing dancers to explore their own movement, that could be the movement's solution. Like we caught me sometimes in coaching, we talk about ecological dynamic view and things and how we're trying to kind of understand the affordances that are presented within our environment or even within our own bodily frame. know, Dan's been very postural to help his.

Dennie Wilson (: 34:45

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 35:02

achieve an outcome or get around an issue in some other way. Now, again, there's another camp that just is more talking about specific condition practices or whatever, but if we want to encourage people, and maybe again, encourage a dancer to figure out how to better perform a choreography, like sometimes I would imagine they need a stimulus where they're encouraged to actually find out their own way of getting around their own constraints. If it's a physical constraint, a psychological constraint.

It's still within a rigid, more structured environment, but it's still they're taking ownership of it, isn't it? And they're becoming part of the process towards the product, aren't they?

Dennie Wilson (: 35:40

Yeah, absolutely. And also working with them so that, because I think there's very much a culture of correction in dance. And again, then that kind of, I've got to force my body into this kind of aesthetic, but to actually be accepting of, okay, yeah, in terms of their natural physical...

Mark Carroll (: 35:47

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 36:03

thick and straight, you know, in terms of turnout, know, dancers will have different natural turnout and that's all to do with skeletal, you know, they don't have control over that. When they do have control over it, how they manage that and if they actually manage that correctly and apply rather than trying to push something to look a certain way so it distorts, which then eventually ends up in an injury,

Mark Carroll (: 36:06

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 36:30

If you can work with a dancer to actually work within that and explore the potential of that, then actually I think what you see is you'll see somebody who maybe doesn't have as natural a degree of turnout as another dancer, but will look like they have because they are working with it truthfully and honestly.

Mark Carroll (: 36:55

And is that sort of what you said the phrase holistic technique? Is that kind of what that is? Is that what that's going towards or is that a slightly different thing?

Dennie Wilson (: 37:04

I think, yeah, as I said that, was like, well, I think what I mean by that is we can get in dance, can get kind of stuck on the physical technique, but there is the performance technique, the musicality, the dynamic, the quality of a movement as well. And I think there can be, and I think in the way that...

Mark Carroll (: 37:13

Hmm.

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 37:28

or I'm probably making, am I making assumptions? I think where we've been with what is available now for students to access online in terms of performances and photographs and you know, there is this, and it is being talked about a lot in terms of I want to get my leg here, I need to do this, I need to, you know, so.

Mark Carroll (: 37:39

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 37:52

I need to look a certain way, I need to be able to do a certain move. And that can be really challenging in terms of a lot of educators are talking about how their, you know, dancers coming in, we need to look like this, need to look like that. you know, there's a lot of benefit in a lot of the resources that are out there if they're used carefully.

Mark Carroll (: 37:59

yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 38:14

and they're used well. So

I think educators are also kind of battling, yeah, I think some would say they are battling that in terms of also, I think, and I'm thinking about, you know, particular sectors where students and parents have an expectation that if their, you know, their child is going to dance, they are going to look like this.

Mark Carroll (: 38:22

Yeah.

Yeah, and you know what, I mean, it's a very sensible comment, just, and I never read it as well in the paper we were talking about, just, it seemed like you were giving an insight into some of sort of psychosocial or psychological sort of issues that some dancers have, if it's not just around comparisons, because like, maybe 20 years ago or 10 years ago, I could imagine a dance student has herself or himself and everyone else in the room to compare themself with.

Now they have a million people to compare themselves with because in an information age, they just need to onto their phone. that is both, it's like everything. There's a love to that and there can be more inspiration, more, but there's also a curse of just the insecurities that brands and then the aesthetic elements of the fabrication often of online stuff and the body image to be an issue. All these things.

Dennie Wilson (: 39:11

Yeah.

Hmm. Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 39:30

Probably now necessity an upgrading on how we manage them and I think that's where your paper I think officer you can temporary view on dance because it clearly can't be taught and I think the same ways Even mass sport or other sports can't really be taught now in the same way They were taught previous years if anything not not just because of but be also because of the fact that young people nowadays are in a totally different world from us so the world

it has to be seen as something we have to guard them from, but also news, but be sensible around that. I mean, if you could elaborate on that further, I suppose, and how you've taken that into this sort of framework for dance, because I thought that was quite a powerful view on things to a point.

Dennie Wilson (: 40:04

See you.

It's really

interesting because I'm not sure I'm going to directly answer your question, but whilst you were speaking, I was thinking about, you know, one of the other drivers for the research was, and it was a crystallising experience for me, you know, as a young dancer where I was very aware of my own self-talk.

And people always told me, tell me now, you're very reflective. You're a very reflective person. When people told me, I was like, am I? I have no idea. I'm just the way I am. But when I then think back, I realized that I was very reflective. But I wasn't ever taught to be reflective. It wasn't part of the...

Mark Carroll (: 40:43

Mm.

Dennie Wilson (: 40:59

that my training, even my education within, know, formal education, it wasn't part of that. And I heard, you you hear along the way, yeah, that student's, you know, that person's really talented, but they haven't got what it takes. And it really, somewhere along the line with the research, it made me just kind of think, what does that,

they don't have what it takes mean? And is it that actually if they were encouraged and to develop their reflective practice and their intrapersonal skills, might they actually have had been equipped with what it takes? You know, because I think people who are

Mark Carroll (: 41:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 41:45

resilient are probably resilient through their own ability or the ability of others to help them through adversity. Yeah, but some people aren't, some people don't, they can be quite lost perhaps, I don't know.

Mark Carroll (: 41:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No,

100%. I mean, look, we even talk about, I I've worked with players in the past that as young kids, like even from a developmental standpoint, like a young kid can't look at the future at 11 years old in the same way a young adult at 19 can. Maybe they can look a year in advance. They can't work back from a six, seven year plan. So like, again, what are you setting them up to fail if you say, you're not guiding them on how do you set targets? What sort of targets do you set?

Dennie Wilson (: 42:20

Hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 42:31

How does

this card that she's set inform what you should be thinking about after a dance class? You're not giving them that guidelines. It's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. They're obviously gonna fail and then you're gonna say that they just didn't have what it takes and then that's just gonna perpetuate. It's like, you know.

Dennie Wilson (: 42:35

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But

I also think that that goal setting or targets or whatever we kind of refer to them as, we have to be really sensitive about how we work with students. You know, people will sort of say, well, yeah, we get corrections during class and then at the end of a term.

will get feedback from our tutor. And it's like, okay, surely everything is feedback. And it'll be a kind of, you know, a 20 minute session where it's like, okay, well, from the feedback, what goals are you going to set for yourself? And if we have time when we've got 20 students, but 20 students in one class, but then 20 students in the next class and the next class.

Mark Carroll (: 43:12

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 43:30

How are we really making sure that we follow up on that enough in a meaningful, purposeful way for each individual? And I think that for me is where I think, and I'm kind of maybe going off-piece, a bit here, but I imagine you have it in sport as well, is that with dance, alongside the technique class, now there's much more...

particularly in vocational training, where strength and conditioning coaching will happen outside of the technique class. But that's physiological strength and conditioning. Where is the psychological strength and conditioning happening is my question. And I think that educators and teachers, it's falling on them. So we're alongside having to teach this and teach that and make sure then get through the curriculum.

Mark Carroll (: 44:03

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 44:28

that they're actually having to manage that side of things. And I think that there needs to be the equivalent of the physiological strength and conditioning to the psychological strength and conditioning that isn't... Because when you look at strength and conditioning, those students will have individual strength and conditioning plans because of their own physiology. And what is happening is...

Mark Carroll (: 44:32

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 44:53

students, vocational training, might have performance psychology, but I think that's a different thing to actually working in a more intimate way with a student in terms of taking what they've been doing in the studio and exploring that through a coaching perspective.

Mark Carroll (: 44:57

Mm-hmm. it, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I suppose the optics of what I could presume would be like a dance studio or in a sports club or organisation, the optics of different levels of staff doing different activities. To the outside, looking in, looks like, wow, that's very integrated in this and that, you're not actually, it's not actually a concurrent, it's not concurrent thinking, like in the sense of we need to, know, ultimately you better dance from dancing.

Dennie Wilson (: 45:36

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 45:40

So like it's the most functional, it's the most relevant, it's the most practice specific activity you can do. And how are we actually pulling in what are supportive mechanisms into the activity itself? And then that's more of a holistic, and I think you've landed on that as well, Danny. it's always one thing to ask, like, because sometimes I think coach education or teacher education, it sometimes feels like we're asked to do another thing. Here's another thing, find another thing. But actually, maybe it's more a system level then.

Dennie Wilson (: 45:51

Yep.

Mark Carroll (: 46:07

We have to make room for, even if it's more cohesive thought, even if it's more integrated thought, we still need to take away other pressures like time, curriculum, heavily set, rigid, you need to get through this in whatever term. We have to allow space for more of the organic, or at least space for more of the most impactful activity that can occur to occur. I was quite interested, I wanted to come back before we move on to getting a bit of an insight into the...

Dennie Wilson (: 46:09

Mm.

Mmm.

Mark Carroll (: 46:36

the practice framework that you then made. I know we've kind of touched on a little bit to put, kind of crystallize that a little bit. I did want to come back to one thing you mentioned a little bit earlier. I thought it was really interesting and it's something I'm constantly kind of grappling with and I'm quite curious to see how it's been giving you mind, mind-fog probably as well. You mentioned about like when the genie's out of the bottle. So see how that idea, like I always think about this because when you move from, or not necessarily move, but when you have that sort of epiphany I think of.

I've done this in one way and now I'm realizing there's another way of doing that. What is certainly been the case for me, and I wonder if this is at all similar to your own experience, I don't know. But when you have then figured out that, you know what, giving them five, six, seven, eight different instructions to keep in their head at one time, that has an impact on flow. To then change your approach, okay, and then knowing that is a helpful benefit.

Does that ever then make you shy about returning to the more stripped in more directive approach? Or do we, because there's a train of thought to say that if you know there's another way and if we see things about holistic exploration and this and that, that by that standard we need to make everything of the same ilk. Or do you feel there is still a need to consider the timings of things? But I just mean in the sense, as teachers or as coaches, we understand the separation of thought.

but think as an athlete or as a dancer, as an athlete, we can't always trust that they're able to flex in the same way because you either are just totally in your head or you're totally not and to be given mixed messaging a lot, is that actually less helpful than to be given constant of any one type of messaging? I wonder what's your thoughts on that? This isn't an answer I'm asking, this is tough.

Dennie Wilson (: 48:20

No, no, it's fine.

As you're saying it, I'm writing down shared mental models. I can hear my supervisor Pam sort of saying, yes, Pam.

Mark Carroll (: 48:27

All right.

Dennie Wilson (: 48:32

But going back on, I don't think it's...

I you bring up a number of different things because I think, you know, that people think, when you found a different way that you're sort of saying the other way was wrong. I don't think I'm, not at all. think there's, in regard to all the different, you know, all the different things that in dance and how we teach and how we learn and how we train and how we coach, it's all needed.

Mark Carroll (: 48:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 48:56

So it isn't about saying that is wrong, that is bad. I think there's more of this done, the stuff, it's kind of, I'm trying to sort my thoughts out because also it comes back to when we talk about time, is that actually sometimes get through this, get through this, get through this, get through this. Well, actually, if you just focus on one thing,

Mark Carroll (: 48:56

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 49:22

you might get through the other things much quicker in the next session. So it's kind of like kind of understanding that kind of the and that made me think of the tortoise and the hare. But I also I think one of the things that I have found myself working on when I work with students and this is about that shared model mental model of explaining to students being upfront with upfront.

Mark Carroll (: 49:26

does their efficiencies

Dennie Wilson (: 49:50

sort of laying out with the students, okay, we are together for a semester and across this semester we know what the assessment is going to be. How we get there, the processes, there's going to be a process of teaching, of training and of coaching. This is how I see teaching. This is how I would approach training. This is how I would approach coaching. Any thoughts, know, discussion around that?

Mark Carroll (: 50:19

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 50:19

And then I will...

Mark Carroll (: 50:22

And is that, is programming done, is that so that they are able to understand that if you continue to use that different language of teaching, coaching, this, they know, right, we're training today. So,

Dennie Wilson (: 50:31

Yes, there is a shared understanding and kind of creating a shared mental model. So they know

where I'm coming from. Hopefully I understand what they understand because we've discussed that together. So that then, and I think this is what I said to students, I know that as an educator, I should be saying these are the learning outcomes and da-da-da-da-da. I've moved away from the, yes, be very clear in terms of I know in my mind where

what we might need to have covered in a particular class, but I'm not, you if we don't get there, I'm able to reflect on and think about how I then manage the next session in terms of how we get to the final. Yes, there is an assessment, so there is a goal. But I will...

I'm lucky I have fantastic sort of smart screens at the RED where I can go in and say, this is the content I'm hoping we're going to get through today, or we're going to cover that is going to be within this particular class. And, you know, if we're in week three, it may be, okay, exercise one, exercise, you know, this, that, that, we learned that last week. And actually,

I might have explained at the end of a class, okay, I've taught this, by next week I expect you to know it so that we can train it, so that there's a point further down the line where we can coach it. So I'm trying to be really explicit with the students as to where my motivation as an educator in the students, in the studio, sorry, comes from. Also, I think to help student expect,

Mark Carroll (: 51:55

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 52:16

understanding of how we're working together. And then sometimes within that, depending on what we're doing, if we're looking at, we're doing a particular, okay, and I might even put an instruction on the whiteboard, 20 minutes, while they're doing the 20 minute warmup, make sure you've gone over this exercise. And so as they're warming up, they'll be sort of reminding themselves.

Because then I might talk to them and say, with this particular exercise, okay, what technical information have you been given? know, going back to the goal, what technical information have you been given about? What do you know about this technically? Yeah, what is your level of expertise? Because they are developing their expertise, you know, every moment that they're in the studio and not in the studio, reflecting on it. And then...

Mark Carroll (: 52:49

Mmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 53:09

I might sort of say, okay, if we were to think about three options, three different things that could be useful to be aware of whilst you're doing them, what might they be? I might have prescribed those at one class because we've not done it before, but the next class I may ask them. I write them on the board and then I'll say, okay, and I might peer them up, you know, okay.

Mark Carroll (: 53:30

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 53:38

choose one of those options, but don't tell your partner. The partner watches, they watch as each other and then they have a discussion to kind of see if they have guess observed the particular decision that they've made of the thing that they're working on. And that that again, that takes time, but further down the line, that's more natural process for them.

Mark Carroll (: 53:47

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Plus it seems like a pretty actionable blueprint you've given there for how we can try to individualize the process as best we can, even when working with a large group. Because one of the things, straight away as you're saying that, because I completely agree, particularly with learning outcomes, there's the risk of, if you set learning outcomes for people, sometimes you do as you said, if it's introducing a topic or whatever. But I always think if you set a learning outcome, sometimes you can restrict and

overly bound what conversations could come out of the session as it runs because of that class of 20 students, we can't presume that each one of them has the same experience in the choreography. So it's like, could imagine, like, could I have it with players if I do a session on passing? For one player, the session is about passing because they have the ball more. For other players, the session wasn't about passing, so their learning outcomes were totally different because they didn't have the ball as much. It was about defending.

And I just, I always think how can we reach, how can we reach people at scale because it's hard, you've got a full group. But I like that idea of it's not just peer coaching or if it's just sometimes having that dialogue with them beyond a certain point. it's like, it seems like a really great, very tangible way for a coach that's listening to access what you're saying, Denny, and use that because you're given structure but there's freedom and there's.

Dennie Wilson (: 55:09

Yeah.

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 55:29

individuality within that and I think a lot of sports struggle with that. Dan's obviously been a culprit sometimes of being very dictatorial and stuff like that but I think I just think that's excellent. What I'm curious on now, I know it's been a bit build up for this which is great, but we're chatting about all this stuff at the same time but the so you then arrived at your sort of a now the practice framework. Now this didn't so much come out of findings as much as it was a model for.

Instruction is that correct? But I know that obviously there's a lot of times elapsed since the publication. So give me a bit of a description

Dennie Wilson (: 56:02

It's interesting, it's kind of

like, rather than a model, kind of see it more as a kind of framework. And I was, I think because all this thinking was going on and it was like, okay, but how do I focus all of that, you know, kind of that kind of you go out and then you need to focus in and you go out and you focus in and it's one of those, you you wake up at 4am in the morning and you can't switch your head off.

Mark Carroll (: 56:09

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 56:29

And it was like, okay, fair enough. And so I just started to write down all of these things. And I think alongside that, was aware of where I'd been sort of doing coaching training that was dealing with SMART goals and the GROW model and that there was various, the ABCDE model. So that kind of coaching that came out of cognitive behavioral coaching.

I thought it was what is there in terms of all the things that I was writing down, is there a word that would help me kind of consolidate all of that thinking? And that's where practice came from. But practice with the S, with that S and it is a, I use it as a bigger S, which initially I kind of thought, okay, we're all talking about the studio as a safe space and.

you know, safe practice. Well, I think one of the things that has not shifted because I think absolutely anywhere should be a safe space. You know, but where all my data collection and research and interviews and the analysis has really brought me to is intrapersonal intelligence and interpersonal intelligence and that being related to the self.

Mark Carroll (: 57:30

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 57:47

And so

I think that's where the biggest, not shift, but where I'm aware of in terms of if I were to look at that now. Yes, I've also for myself, not as a direct case studies for my PhD, but in terms of my own teaching practice is that I have sat, particularly with teaching choreography,

is I have sat over one semester and developed a supplementary scheme of work based on reflective practice. So where there may be the choreographic scheme of work in terms of this week, we're going to do this and in preparation for next week, I need you to look at this or look at that. I also developed for students because part of their assessment is a student led discussion about creating choreographies.

And I said, you don't have to do it, it's not part of this, but I've developed a scheme of work based on reflective exercises. Actually, well, I mean, the third year of doing it now, I think students, one of the things is that the student led discussions improved, but I can't, that's anecdotal in terms of, think their reflection.

Mark Carroll (: 58:38

Hmm.

And what was the response to that in terms of since you put it out?

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 59:05

really helped them in terms of their student-led discussions. But for me, I said to myself, I am going to do a series of reflective exercises after each of these sessions. And I documented those and from that I extracted or kind of analysed it in terms of what I was writing and how that mapped to the practice framework. So now where I've got sort of practice framework,

Mark Carroll (: 59:29

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 59:33

as you know I might have process and performance but underneath that I've got a whole load of other P's and a whole load of other R's and but they don't need to be put there I just kind of know that they all weave into that if that makes sense.

Mark Carroll (: 59:45

Hmm. Yeah.

And I know obviously, you know, I suppose we don't need to necessarily just send the paper, which is in for brevity, suppose, but you know, you've spoke a lot around some of the points already, say space, empowerment, the individuality, talent development, your focus on coaching pedagogy and bringing that into dance. That sort of, could you clarify this one? There was one element I was quite curious about, Denny, around awareness, agency, autonomy.

Dennie Wilson (: 59:59

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:00:12

Can you describe what was that getting at? We've got the clog metaphor of practice and dance and teacher.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:00:16

Yeah, I think

the awareness was definitely related to the inner game and not technical instructions, but dancers being aware. Awareness rather than, but I think also awareness in relation to that kind of... What would I say? In terms of...

Mark Carroll (: 1:00:28

okay, just that word, yeah, sorry, I'll let on.

This.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:00:47

where the, I don't want to say the locus of control, you know, where control sits, whether the, what's it of change, the element of change, where that sits with a teacher. And then, you know, what sits with a teacher, you know, that element of change sits with a teacher, and that element of change that sits with the...

Mark Carroll (: 1:00:53

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:01:08

with the ownership, so the ownership of change might sit with a teacher and when you're coaching the ownership of change actually sits with the individual. I suppose that kind of awareness of that that I think then leads to, know, intrinsic to that is then a sense of autonomy and agency.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:09

this journal.

Ah, I'll this without shift and power.

Yeah, and people,

Dennie Wilson (: 1:01:33

answer is working.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:35

yeah, plus I mean, I know it's a conversation for another time, but I know that, know, Tony made and come to the motivation to actually continue to be there because that's the thing is, and that people, and this is across dance, but also other sports and coaching, like we forget that we need to inspire people to want to come back. Like sometimes we overlook trying to get the most effective coaching session in the world.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:01:45

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:58

that we forget

how do we actually make this stimulating enough that they want to partake in it again. Because that is such an important thing. You're both, you're a salesman to the endeavor, while also try to be a teacher to the process, you know, in a sense, that's what you're trying to kind of manage those things at once. Then I'm conscious of your time. If we could, if I could challenge you to maybe, we talk a lot in the show about, we're trying to bring this segment and now we're talking about coaching hats.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:02:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:26

If I was the challenger, it's gonna summarize our conversation today and it's our three main, subtle little bits of information that coaches or teachers, whatever we want to, whatever we want to think of ourselves in this exact moment, we know it's fluid, that's something that's came out of this conversation. If you want to take something away, some advice away that we can implement tomorrow, what would it be, even if it's at the starting point of something that's a longer term endeavor, what would you say?

Dennie Wilson (: 1:02:51

I don't know. So I've kind of written, I know that very, very close to my heart is interpersonal intelligence and reflection. But I think that, and I think I've mentioned them all, is that ownership of change. And, you know, as an educator, really thinking about where the ownership of change sits and how that shifts. Because I think when we...

And equally, I talked about it and, you know, the understanding of shared mental models, not presuming that students understand, not presuming that we even understand ourselves or what we're talking about, but, you know, that dialogue develops. I think that dialogue in terms of developing understanding or unpacking understanding.

because that can help us understand where people may be thinking very, very differently. Or it makes us realize, oh gosh, well, what I assumed they understood, I was completely, you know, far from the mark. that, and that then, that developing the decision-making, that process of how to...

Mark Carroll (: 1:03:46

Mm-hmm.

you

Mmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:04:09

to facilitate a session where, I mean, I know that we're always making decisions, but where through the process of working, how students are developing their decision-making is a way that is supported and productive.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:21

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:04:32

do I

mean productives? Because I could put safe into that because they could be making decisions that are, I don't say rational, because that makes it sound all, but you know, because creativity's got to come into it. But I think sometimes dancers can make decisions where actually they're being very hard on themselves and very cruel to themselves.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:45

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:04:52

And so they're making decisions that enable them to be creative, that enable them to grow, and enable them to continue to enjoy what they're doing. that they have ownership over that, but that there's still that, if they're coming to sessions, it's because they have a belief in

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:58

Hmm.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:05:15

and a trust of the coach or the person that they're working with.

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:16

Hmm.

And a lot of wonder that some maybe are a bit over the critical when the teaching or coaching process within dancing has probably for lot of years has been overly mechanistic and quite, you know, it sounds like if you've got a faulty part in a car, you take it out, very, you know, we're forgetting there's a human in that. So amazing. love, actually I think what you're giving us out is a bit unique, Denny, is that these are more like three reflective points, which is cool because this is a thinking conversation and I think that's really good.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:05:38

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:49

I like that kind of change of pace. I said, this is actually another additional question I did have, sorry, I'm gonna keep you. I'm just curious, are we getting anywhere? have you seen dance? Are you alone in your thinking? Or are you seeing this, is this starting to grow? Is dance evolving? Or are we still somewhere that we're platoon?

Dennie Wilson (: 1:05:53

Alright, okay.

Good.

No,

I'm not alone in my thinking. I think the way that I express it might be different in terms of the way that I use the word coaching, but I'm beginning to have those discussions with people like our artistic director within the organisation, who comes from that very traditional field of dance coaching. I think

in terms of dance pedagogy and you know, there is an advancement that teachers, educators are consistently trying to move from that reproduction to the production and you know, guided discovery, convergent to divergent, still working to kind of do that. But I think

within the vocational setting and sometimes within the private sector again to do with time, there's still challenges. And I think that's for me that's where...

the sort of differentiating in my head that kind of really, know, some people kind of go, well, does it matter if that, you know, whether you call yourself a teacher, a trainer or a coach? For me, actually, yes, it does. It does matter because it helps me when I'm going into the studio in terms of how I work with students.

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:30

Yeah,

and what's come out, think what's came out of this chat for me, Denny, and why I just need to thank you so much for obviously producing this paper with your co-author, Pam Richards, is that you're not trying to replace anything. And I think that's what's great because it goes against the typical logic. And I think this is partly a, I'll speak just as loosely within the coaching world here, but I think we do have an element of a...

Dennie Wilson (: 1:07:43

No.

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:54

I wouldn't say it's tribalistic, but we do often see everything outside of what we currently know or do as an enemy. And it's always about are we trying to replace it? No, we're not. And I think what you have offered is a differentiation of moment to moment responsibility on the part of the person who is coaching or teaching or training. It's not at the expense of any other one of those modalities. It's just recognizing the fluidity and the requirements of.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:08:16

Good.

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:20

the vocation and I think that's great. I think that's we need to see more of. So, thanks so much, obviously, for giving me so much of your time. Yeah, yeah, honestly. And for those that are listening, I hope the conversation's been as useful to you as it certainly has for me. So, yeah, we'll see you all next time.

Dennie Wilson (: 1:08:28

Well, thank you for inviting me.