Ancelotti's half-time team talk coach, Eamon Devlin

EAMON DEVLIN (: 00:00

And the role of the coach is to intervene if he or she thinks it can make a difference to those players. So that's more supporting role.

The analogy which someone taught me once, like, you're in a really good restaurant, you don't notice the waiters.

The glass is just filled up just at the right time. The menu appears just at the right time. The plates are cleared at the right time. You don't see them, but they appear at the right time for support.

Mark Carroll (: 00:17

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 00:26

Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of Labours of Sports Coaching. So in this conversation today I had with Eamonn Devlin who is founder of Minute Nine. We discussed the art and science of halftime talks that coaches will make to players. It was really interesting, and I would say this, Eamonn brought to the floor really unique perspectives of different things that aren't...

entirely alien to coaches insofar as being able appreciate the utility of them, but would challenge them to consider what behaviors they do that's just about fitting in within their current context. We speak often around football, but again, we compare it to other sports and for those that are listening that come from other sports, there's absolutely so much that can be leaned and carried over onto your sport, regardless of where that sport is. But we go through a lot from chatting about

the emotional element of halftime tots, the need to consider landing spaces, both for the players and for the coaches

there is so much clear fundamental validity to what Eamonn is saying that we must listen to as coaches. And I just think, and I would encourage you to really listen to all of this chat because there's just so much that to be taken from it. We even get into talking about what coaches wear and how players perceive it. And it is a conversation that yeah, comes on the back of the work that Eamonn has done with elite.

clubs all across the world, but that still has a transferable value to coaches in academy level or youth level or coaches in grassroot sports. So anyone can take something from this talk. So please listen. I'm really looking forward to getting into it. A brief update will I have you as well on just some of the activity of the podcast and the way the labors of sports coaching mission. In February there, the first ever newsletter dropped.

the labors of sports coaching, the self-determined coach newsletter, which was built around my particular understanding and experience and background in motivational psychology, looking at the coach creating a motivational environment. It was amazing fun to put the newsletter together. And I was given a bit of an insight into some of the latest research articles that have been coming out in this space. We had a systematic review.

and there we had one looking at the influence of the coach creating motivational environment on doping intentions, just to sort of show you the breadth of thought that the newsletter tries to touch upon, all but bounded in a more niche space of motivational psychology, as I say. And I also give some practical tips in there around how you can actually be a more motivationally adaptive coach in the way that you work with players day to day. We chat a little bit around, there's some blog.

articles in there too, just in terms of what I think around some messaging in this space. And we gave a little bit of a breakdown of some recent conversations on the podcast for wider learning. So if you are someone who really loves or has an interest in the coach creating motivational environment, separate from other conversational topics that this podcast gets into alongside that, then go and check it out. And even if that isn't the be all and end all of coaching for you, which it shouldn't be,

Go and have a look at it as well anyway, just in so far as like getting a sense for, you know, one little corner of the coaching landscape, but also then getting a bit more information on the podcast and guests that we have upcoming. So I give a little bit of an insight and a bit of a sneak preview to some future episodes. And I'm gonna keep building the newsletter. It's a monthly thing. So the March issue will come out very, very soon at the end of this month, the beginning of next month rather.

So please check it out, the link to subscribe and it's fully free is in the show notes. Okay, check it out, check out the website attached to it if you want to access some of my own consultancy services there too. And please, and I apologize for being this guy that has to ask this question, please try to subscribe to the show if you aren't already and rate it, see if you rate it like five stars. I don't know how it all works but apparently it's really good for the discoverability of the show so then more listeners come to it.

Therefore the show is able to generate more interest. Therefore I have more capacity to increase the production further. So all these things fit in to come back to you as a listener. I'm really thankful for all the support everyone's so far. So please keep it up. I'm here to support everyone else and we're here to support each other as coaches. That is the whole point of the labors of sports coaching mission. without any further delay, let's get into the conversation with Eamonn. I hope you enjoy it.

Mark Carroll (: 05:13

Hi Eamon, so how are you? Firstly it's great to have you on the show, just to get a bit of an opportunity to chat today about half time team talks, so how's things?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 05:21

Good, yeah, thanks for the invite, Mark. Looking forward to this. How are things? Things are a bit crazy. I know if I'm coming or going, but overall good. And I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Mark Carroll (: 05:24

Yeah?

think that's just the case anyone who works in sport, isn't it? So yeah, so look, I mean, one of the things that interested me straight off, straight for the off, I think, when I came across your work, I mean, was just this trend towards kind of compartmentalizing elements of game day. And obviously you've now got a specific focus looking at the halftime team talk. So the big question I think to start with, an easy question, but I just would like to know a bit more about your motivations in this space. Why?

Why should we care about halftime team totes? Why do you care so much about halftime team totes? And how did this all come about, your work to date?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 06:04

Thanks asking me an easy question at beginning, Mark. So my motivation, so I've got two daughters, Zoe and Nancy, and my elder daughter was playing football. This was five years ago and we're living in Switzerland at the time outside Zurich. And my daughter was playing in the under 11 local girls team and the team wasn't doing very well. They're like losing 6-0, 8-0.

12-0, 20-0. think there was game six before they scored a goal. But as the team lost more and more heavily, the coaches spoke more and more to the players. To one point, one game, they lost 24-0. And I said to myself, I'm going to time how long the coaches speak to the players. And the post, actually cheating, but the post-match speech was nine minutes long. And after that, my daughter Zoe said to me,

I'm I'm leaving. I can take losing games. can take getting, you know, conceding goals. What I can't take is getting, is feeling crap by my coaches. So she left. And I was a lawyer at the time, but I remember thinking, there must be a better way of communicating with players, surely. So that was my motivation, yeah, to try and see if there's a better way of communicating with players.

Mark Carroll (: 07:10

Hmm.

And how did that I'm saying if that story with the coaches and was this was this around how they presented their kind of talk at halftime or after the match. So in these kind of moments where it's the coach, the players, it's not it's not live action at that stage. Is it is it around that? I wonder how did we move from that experience to then going, you know what we need to do better here in our interactions or in these sort of key moments.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 07:49

the coaches getting more and angry. was one way communication. It was borderline shouting. And as more more pressure came on the coaches, the more and words came out and the more frustrated they were getting. And the players felt that. So, mean, there's a good end to that story. My daughter since went back into football as playing, she plays, works on that. She plays in the Oxford City Academy, but she left for three years over that. So, yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 07:59

Hmm

So does

that talk maybe a little bit to the sort of emotional intelligence of coaching and the communication with players, particularly I suppose in reaction to match events? Because I would wonder just in terms of if you talk us through your understanding around when things aren't going so well, is there a difference in approach perhaps versus when things are going well in the way that coaches might talk to players?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 08:43

I think, yeah, think certainly the context seems to have a very dramatic effect on what coaches say and how they say it. We would generally suggest to coaches, you probably do the same in your work, we'd say to coaches, if you're gonna intervene, first question is why are you intervening? And secondly, who's it for?

Mark Carroll (: 08:51

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 09:03

Is it for your own ego? Is it so you can feel better? You you've offloaded your own thoughts and issues or are you speaking, you know, because the players think it would be beneficial. So there's a lot of, we track communication quite a lot now, Mark, in our business. You know, how much coaches are saying, do you have match day? And the words are increasing, like in game, pregame, halftime, post game. They're all increasing. At the same time, player words are going down.

Mark Carroll (: 09:15

Hmm.

So why do you think that is? I'd be keen to know, is this a new problem? Like, are coaches now just inundated with more information or more expectation on the role? Or why do feel like you're seeing a trend where feel that the amount of information coaches are given is increasing and players' voices perhaps being reduced? Or at least even, I don't know if you might even say players' voice, but just players' opportunity just to figure it out and self-regulate.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 09:32

the number of spoken words.

Mark Carroll (: 10:01

What is this a modern thing? Well, if you can maybe give a bit more background to that that trend you're noticing

EAMON DEVLIN (: 10:07

You might know the answer better than me because I've only been involved in this for the last year really, like full time, like sort of focusing for last 12 months. I would give one suggestion is, particularly when got sort of bigger teams or professional teams, elite teams, there's more and more coaches suddenly appearing. you know, and often people want to, you know, speak and justify their existence.

Mark Carroll (: 10:12

Yeah.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

That was the main one I thought, just as you said that. Because it is impression management coaching as well. And particularly I know a lot of your work, Aiman's obviously been in performance focused environments where whether we choose to accept it or not, there's a coach centered practice at play there all the time because the coaches are on their own career track.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 10:34

So.

Mark Carroll (: 10:53

And if coaches, and it probably also can be scaled down to grassroots amateur coaching as well, insofar as when a coach is put into a position where they're expected to be a leader, they're expected to do leader-like behaviors. And as much as sometimes we have that sort of jargon around, you know, the leader that's quiet and this and that, I think certainly when you then mix that in with emotions and pressure and things like that, coaches do speak to justify their own.

existence, isn't it? It's like what you said and it's sort of like more words is more for the coaches benefit rather than the kids. It's a bit of that happening.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 11:24

Yeah,

we see it particularly pronounced in football. We work in different sports, but I guess most of our data is in football, but they what we what we've of what I've realized, Mark is, is try to normally equate so we work with a team or a coach, we would try to discuss, you know, the overall sort of game day. And we go on the initial questions we'd ask who's who do you think game day is for?

Look at who the, who's it mainly, you know, is it for the players? Is it for the coaches? Is it for the crowd? And I think if, you know, I personally think, I think it's, I think it's mainly for the players. And I think if a coach agrees with that, I think that could often change quite dramatically how they approach the communication on match day, totally halftime. Just really like, yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 11:58

you

And is that, why is that then, that due to, because I mean, you might see the role of a coach in a match that he's been about supporting, or you might see his coaching, or you might see his advisory. So there is power, isn't there, sometimes, to the words that we attach to signify our role. So if you can elaborate on that, think it's quite interesting.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 12:32

Yeah, I

mean, obviously, you look at an area, Mark, and you kind of, you know, focus on it, you kind of almost have to, we don't have to, but you kind of, you know, I've got a philosophy, which nobody agrees with. And the basic ball is done to match day half time is for the players, first and foremost. And the role of the coach is to intervene if he or she thinks it can make a difference to those players. So that's more supporting role.

The analogy which someone taught me once, don't know who it was, I can't credit them, was like, you're in a really good restaurant, either with your wife or your partner, in really good restaurant you don't notice the waiters.

Mark Carroll (: 13:08

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 13:10

The glass is just filled up just at the right time. The menu appears just at the right time. The plates are cleared at the right time. You don't see them, but they appear at the right time for support.

Mark Carroll (: 13:14

Hmm.

Hmm. And it's funny you said, cause what I'm sort of zooming in on there is when you said the role of the coaches that intervene if they're required to do say that halftime talk, as you said, for the players. So like, cause coaches listening, they'll be like, well, what do I do? Or how do you facilitate halftime talk? Because there's often the players that spit that. I would wonder with the work that you've done, is it?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 13:44

Mm-hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 13:47

Does it require quite a bit of time probably if this is about starting to put the players in the driving seat because players need to be trained to take ownership, I think too, don't they? And the coaches as well, but yeah, if you want to elaborate on that, think that's quite interesting.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 13:59

Yeah, I got a rude awakening, to say, I am just going back to the philosophy of half time, we think it's player led, give players voices. And I thought it'd just be easy to change some protocols and then players start talking. Then I sort of analysed the system in some football teams and clubs and academies. And then I realised, these players don't say much, you know, from quite a young age. So suddenly getting giving them a stage to talk.

You just get silence often. So another fundamental question we normally ask a coach, Mark, is do you want the players to have a voice? And we always say, I always say, but before you answer, just give us some quite careful thought. Because if you do, then that means you have less control of the situation.

Mark Carroll (: 14:28

Hmm.

Hmm. And how do we get the balance right between that then of relinquishing control while still providing structure? Because often, in some sense, I agree with that. But I would also wonder, one, sometimes players don't want control. And obviously there's a relationship, that's almost a bit like contracting to an extent. Like at least they want to have a say perhaps subconsciously on who has control, but sometimes they're happy to be the coach is the director of, but.

Also I would wonder, pedagogically speaking, or even actually just as a constraint of time pressures and things like that, how do coaches manage offering autonomy, but in a way that is productive for getting the most out of a short window of time as they can in those moments? So that's where I would, I think that's where a lot of people then argue back and say, no, do you what, we need to get instructions or feedback, we just don't have the time, we need to get points across.

And

EAMON DEVLIN (: 15:41

Yeah, I don't know you've got an easy answer to that. I mean, if you just go step back for a second, so it's funny when people talk about halftime, people always jump into the halftime team talk, right? This is the first thing people often think of. Now going back to this principle of, know, is it for the players match day? If you ask players what the most important thing with halftime is, the halftime team talk ranks about number five of all importance.

Mark Carroll (: 15:48

Hmm.

Hmm.

Okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 16:06

So I think there's a lot coaches can consider about half time way before they get to the half time team talk and more important things I would strongly argue than the half time team talk. So.

Mark Carroll (: 16:13

Hmm.

Hmm,

so other than yeah interesting, you know

EAMON DEVLIN (: 16:20

number one is rest.

Number two is refueling. Number three is normally just be together as a group, and kind of feel safe with your teammates. Four is, yeah, just discussing the sort of the game amongst the players. So they're probably the main ones actually, I'm missing one, they? But it's, yeah, so it's, yeah, so it's really kind of trying to get, yeah, give...

Mark Carroll (: 16:35

No, okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 16:43

players need to feel any time and space to kind of just, the analogy I use is if you're the coach Mark of Celtic, you've got 11 airplanes flying, in the pitch, whistle goes half time. You've got to find a way of getting those 11 airplanes to basically land in your dressing room. Because they're going at full speed, very short, high intensity sprints.

Mark Carroll (: 17:01

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 17:06

you football's quite a long like it's quite a long half 45 minutes quite long plus at a time so it's like you know out there for probably 55 minutes um if the planes are still flying and the coach starts speaking i think you can make a strong case that not only can the players not even listen to you they can't even see you like metaphorically and we've we've i through our research we've realized that that landing phase takes quite a lot of time mark today the players really come back to

Mark Carroll (: 17:32

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 17:35

in the dressing room, ground level, engines off, refuel, just take a second.

Mark Carroll (: 17:41

It's interesting you say that actually. It's a pretty cool perspective just in the fact that it maybe touches on the individual experience of sport even in a team context because that's quite interesting because maybe one of the pitfalls that we're getting onto here for coaches at halftime is that we treat the players as if they are one whole body, whereas it sounds like you've created a real awareness for.

aiming is that the players are individuals and we need to reset them. Does that maybe coincide with why? Because I was keen on, just as soon as you said, rest, refueling. It sounds like you ramp up to the team level, because like rest and refueling is an individual practice, and then it moves into safety, which then becomes more of a social, or maybe starting to, I don't know, put yourself back in a space where can talk, or at least be within a team.

team environment at that point and then the discussion. So it's like, does that sort of fit with that alignment of, you what you said, the landing phase to things? Because it's, I feel like that seems to jump out at me, resonates.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 18:44

Yeah, there's certainly, obviously, if you are successful, get into planes down, then obviously they have to take off again, right, for the second half. So, and I feel it's the sort of taking off phase, which coaches may also may want to consider. So, and that usually involves, you know, the coach coming in or the coaches saying their piece, which by the way, we try to get coaches down to 60 seconds at half time speaking.

Mark Carroll (: 19:10

So why is that? Why sets the sentence in?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 19:13

We ran some tests last summer with a football team in England. Now it wasn't a competitive game, friendly game. Manager spoke for three minutes. A well-known manager, I thought reasonably, actually well-structured speech. We then did a sort of impromptu check on players before they started the second half, like randomly. What did coach Mark say to you a few minutes ago? And we got the results and the results weren't very good.

So it's, think that the limit, one of key limitations is how much people remember. And obviously it's a very difficult thing to kind of really, you know, put them into a sentence, but you know, think at a high level it's players have got plenty going on in their head already. It actually takes very good delivery to kind of, you know, make an imprint in their brain at half time.

Mark Carroll (: 19:58

Hmm, so is this, is this maybe getting into a little bit of the science behind retention as well? So like, I know there's like cognitive overload theory where we're talking about how much information we can keep in our working memory at any one time. And then there's lots of like funny little asterisks to that. Cause maybe there's an arbitrary figure of maybe three or four pieces of information, but then that's assuming they're all of the same level of complexity. It's assuming that they've been.

communicated in a way that makes sense for each individual. It's also assuming that players emotional level is apt to actually allow them to listen because if you can't control your emotions and therefore, look, that's sports emotional, you can't always concentrate when you're not in control of your emotions so that then in turn has an impact. As some of that stuff came out.

Or is some of that stuff underpinning this? Or is there other perspectives that you might take from insofar as the hard science that backs that up?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 20:57

Yeah, so there's things you mentioned, right? If you're still, you know, your heart rate's still way above resting heart rate, then your ability to remember is, because your fight or flight, right, is kind of has been flicked. So you're trying to get people into a more, yeah, measured state, where you've got a higher odds of people remembering. We've also realized that people remember better, more what they see than what they hear.

Mark Carroll (: 21:10

you

EAMON DEVLIN (: 21:21

which is obviously that's very well established science. Actually funny, I always say to coaches, there's a good chance your players will recall more what you wore than what you said, the match day.

Mark Carroll (: 21:32

Okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 21:33

So we have a whole piece of advice actually around what coaches are aware but that's a whole rabbit hole. is, yeah, so visual aids is to be honest, a complete no-brainer at half time.

Mark Carroll (: 21:45

So let's get about into both of them then. So visual aids, what are coaches missing? what also is, there's gonna be some things, there's like token stuff that think coaches just want to put out there that feels like it's just a prop, but then it sounds like maybe that is actually the better way to go. So I wonder what are really effective visual aids that you've seen and how do they combine with the messaging that coaches want to put forward? Is it tactics boards? Is it more than that? What would we be saying?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 22:14

Yeah, well, just on that, so if we're helping a coach at halftime, we always insist, and it sounds cocky, but we always insist the players are involved in the discussion. Because ultimately, you know, we have a couple of interesting ideas, but I don't know your culture of your team. haven't met your players. don't know. You know, we find good value in having, you know,

Mark Carroll (: 22:23

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 22:37

Blank piece of paper. Right guys, we've got 900 seconds here to kind of carve out. Why don't you just get around a table with the players and just design it as a group. It doesn't actually take that long. And one of those things is asking the players, what visual aids would you find useful? I guess statistically we find most useful, mean clips are useful if they're done properly, video clips. And what I mean by that is A, they're not too many and B, coaches don't speak over them.

Mark Carroll (: 23:06

That would be the impulse, isn't it? Because you've got a clip, it's meaningful. You are time constrained, so you're to talk over them so you can get another clip in, or so you can get another point in afterwards. So it's just play the clip, let them assimilate it, and then if there's a conversation, facilitate that. Again, don't prescribe, perhaps, to a point.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 23:25

Well,

yeah, I we would generally and again, going back to fundamental questions and ultimately the coach decides, you know, what environment they want to create. But, know, if you believe that players have a voice, but not all coaches believe that and that's fine, right? That's their choice. But if you do want players of a voice, then that requires, as you said, some training and some changes of behavior. And so going back to video example one.

One idea is that you show one clip, say six seconds long. And the question you ask the players is, why is the analyst clip this, do think?

Mark Carroll (: 23:59

Hmm.

And is that so just.

Because I would wonder just when you mention that around coaches that maybe don't always want players to have a voice, but I would imagine, and I just wonder if this resonates or not at all with your experience, but I would imagine where coaches might think that sometimes at player autonomy and halftime moments might fall down is where it just starts digressing into loads of different places and spaces and natural focus of either the tactics they're trying to employ

whatever, it gets too modified or, but I would wonder, that's probably an artifact of preparation before match day, that it is so much an artifact of player input and how that maybe affects the coaching process, isn't it? Because if you've done enough training during the week, people understand the tactics, they understand what they're wanting to do in the game, then we've bounded the conversation, so we do allow for input, it should be more productive and less likely to diverge.

I just would wonder what your thoughts are with that. I wonder if that's maybe where there's a bit of a contradiction in the way coaches think around this approach is that they don't recognise there's a whole lot of structure back in the conversations up. they bringing that to the floor?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 25:09

I think you're right, think there's a contradiction. how many messages, obviously we've now got lot of data on how long coaches speak for half time and actually pre-game as well. But how long do you reckon, what's the average half time team talk by coach in football do you think in today's, in elite level?

Mark Carroll (: 25:24

off.

So I mean, I suppose to give you an insight into what I thought there when you initially said the coach had done three minutes, was like, ah, three minutes is pretty concise, pretty structured. And then it's interesting you said down to 60. So that would probably tell me I think in sometimes it's the whole talk, it's the whole half time, 10 minutes sometimes, maybe across three coaches, which is another thing. So.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 25:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you're looking at

seven minutes, 20 minutes, seven minutes, 20 seconds. And then the average we have is culture giving an average 22 tactical messages.

Mark Carroll (: 25:55

So that all was good, yeah.

22 jeez and how many coaches did you survey like so in terms of that data that you're referring to there how many halftime thoughts of you

EAMON DEVLIN (: 26:10

We have, well, they're all based

off our clients. I don't know, we've got, it's probably quite a few years, about 40, I'd say. Because we get tapes sent through, like frankly, from kind of, not all over the world, but certainly a few places around the world. Half times we analyze and we score them, et cetera. And so it gives us quite sort of reasonable, but it's good, but they're getting longer. And actually the...

Mark Carroll (: 26:19

40 torches, yeah.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 26:37

You mentioned that the three coaches, that's the real killer words. So the head coach may speak to the manager and then he go, Mark, anything else from you? Another thing? You know, and players are very clear marking their feedback or their research and that they don't like that as a general rule.

Mark Carroll (: 26:53

And again, coaches I think do that sometimes to make their colleagues feel included. And it's like, it's actually done almost as like a gesture of support to their colleague. But again, what they ultimately try to do here, they're trying to support the players. And it's funny that in a sense, and it probably is just just roots and insecurity from coaches about needing to say something, isn't it?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 27:00

Yeah.

which is why we've also I found that I'm so and again, not every coach like this might say this and we generally don't don't have the coaches in our in our in the coach in the room very long half time. So when when when particularly in football, less so in rugby and basketball, typically in football, when the manager and the entourage comes in to the dressing room,

there's usually the following things happen, almost without fail. Player stop eating, stop drinking, stop talking.

Mark Carroll (: 27:46

We tell players, we tell players to stop doing, when people are talking, to stop playing with their kit. It's just funny when you say that. I tell players, everyone stop, someone's talking or I'm talking.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 27:46

So good night.

I mean, I think a different, I mean, actually we just, a little team like, thought of quite recently. And again, I think it's gonna like this, you know, so the coach, you know, the coaches come in when they're ready.

And alternative is, and I know one team doing this now, the captain goes to the coach's room and says, right, now you can speak.

Mark Carroll (: 28:22

Hmm

EAMON DEVLIN (: 28:24

And that's

a very different mindset, right? It's like the players decide, you know, if they want to hear from you and when they hear from you, as opposed to when the coaches, cause then, and we haven't done an analysis on that, but I would have thought that helps memory retention because the players are deciding, okay, we've had our food, we have our arguments, whatever. Now, now we want to get the, you know, the adults in the room, tell us what to do or discuss what to do.

Mark Carroll (: 28:51

And does that approach come from what you've noticed in the case studies of really successful teams and how they've applied, how they went through the process, or is it your own thought and framework? Where is that coming from?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 28:58

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's

coming from, and overall, what we found, is that the really good coach are the ones who asked for help.

Mark Carroll (: 29:09

Mm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 29:10

I've noticed that. I think the really elite coaches are ones who have asked for help.

Mark Carroll (: 29:16

Well, there's that

famous pitcher isn't there of Ancelotti I think in the sidelines and these, think he's got Modric and some of the other, think one or two other Real Madrid players during the game asking for their advice. It's just funny when you see a coach who's so willing to be vulnerable enough to do that.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 29:32

Yeah, and when that is, they are, they are our biggest client, I that they,

I think without Schlotty, what can I say without, I mean, I guess well known as like he kind of, he doesn't overshadow the players. That's all I can say. He does not overshadow the players. Which, and of course, when you look at that level, then you've done it to a whole nother level of complexity, which is language issues. Real Madrid have got 12 nationalities, 10 native languages in their dressing room. So this idea of giving, you know, one long speech.

in Spanish, was actually our first piece of advice to them, was why do you speak in Spanish? And they said it was a Spanish club. Okay, but there's only three Spanish players and they're not even first 11.

Mark Carroll (: 30:18

So how do you manage that? So where there is, and I suppose this isn't just maybe a conversation strictly around the football scenario, but other sports as well where it's a global market of players. So the teams are always becoming ever more diverse insofar as the nationalities. does that maybe come then back on the players then to have a really supportive?

culture of players who are doing really different messages to one another. I just wonder how does that matter? people manage that then? All those different actors that then need to speak in different dialects and voices.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 30:55

Yeah, and again, don't know if going to any easy answers. But what we have noticed, what we have noticed though is, yeah, just this idea of giving, you know, one big long talk in one language is almost dead now, you could argue. In these multicultural, what I call the UN football teams, it's like, it's like, there's more passports than, you know, than we can, types we can think of. So

Mark Carroll (: 30:59

I don't I don't know.

Hmm.

Is

that why the visual stuff maybe is becoming more important?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 31:23

Yes.

Yeah, so we've developed those systems which which involves, you know, these people as large diverse groups where we communicate. In we try to get away from words. So we use colors quite a lot to communicate.

Mark Carroll (: 31:37

Okay, bye now.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 31:39

Well, universal, right? mean, you look at a very basic level, you look at the, you know, football, red card, yellow card.

Mark Carroll (: 31:45

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 31:46

And there are ways of transmitting tactics and also stats at halftime using colors.

Mark Carroll (: 31:52

What in

a way like green doing well and were not so great. I don't know, I'm just thinking of different protocols that might be at play there. How can we actually use and pick that up in a tangible sense?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 32:04

Yeah, so let's say, I actually just use more for an infant rugby. Um, so like, let's say you set three separate targets for the first half in a game football. You might have, I don't know, you're going to target 15 entries into the opposition, you know, players come in half time and they see a red light against that statistic. Well, that shows they're behind schedule because they're only made.

Mark Carroll (: 32:30

you

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 32:34

11.

It works nicely when the players decide what stats or what the targets are.

Mark Carroll (: 32:41

Mm-hmm. because then they're easy, they're able to grasp it more easily, I'd imagine then. Yeah.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 32:42

So you come in.

Yes, the grass,

they've got buy into it responsibility for it. It's not just been given to them by, you know, high above. So, yeah, and then. So that that's worked well and music, music quite a lot. Somewhere bigger, teams. So. What? Yeah, so overall, you try and do is this basically reduced amount of information given to players.

Mark Carroll (: 33:00

to.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 33:10

going back to feedback from players, they're often just overloaded. That's before anyone actually speaks. Like anxiety, loneliness, we've found in Italy football to be big issue. Loneliness and anxiety, huge problems at halftime and beyond that, football.

Mark Carroll (: 33:30

I'm curious as well, see, because obviously we're now established that sometimes words in itself can be problematic. And then I'm also thinking about the well-intentioned coaches who verbally try to bring players in to the conversation. And oftentimes, mean, I think back to maybe the first thing we were speaking about, about the different roles that a coach might play on a match day in terms of who is it for. And mean, my own personal philosophy has always been that coaches are there to support.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 33:46

Hmm.

Mark Carroll (: 33:59

I'm actually not so much coach, I always say when you pose, you may not even be posing a question, but when you present a problem to a player and you do it verbally as such, in any sense that it feels like they have to give a response, sometimes I wonder is there a risk there depending on us to get the answer correct or not, and there is going to be a correct answer, at least in the way they perceive it. That could actually in turn, if they don't get it right, impact their sense of confidence further. Whereas we're trying to create a space where they can engage.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 34:22

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 34:27

with the environment that we're presenting but maybe not in a way that the risk of feeling worse is more? I just wonder what you think in that or if you've seen anything around that.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 34:33

Yeah.

I mean, I, what, what, well, I, what we, we stroke C Mark is that I think there's a, a, there's a crisis in confidence happening with young players. And that's just not, that's just not, that's academies, first teams where, know, just sent you see, cause we're obviously in quite a lot of dressings now because you can feel the fear, right? You can just sense it.

I think to get players, know, to give them a voice. The most common question we see coaches give players is, tell me what you see. How does the game feel?

And I would argue that's not great question to ask a player or the team at halftime. And the reason for that Mark is because if you did get answers, you're gonna get four or five pretty random, unstructured, unconnected answers to that question. And it's very hard for you as a coach to kind of then string that together into some kind of coherent way that you've listened to the players. And alternative way of doing that is giving the players a different question.

Mark Carroll (: 35:22

you

EAMON DEVLIN (: 35:34

our framework. The one we probably still use most with our clients is a stop start continue. So at halftime, the players have got a whiteboard and they've got three questions and you can allocate, know, maybe it's, you know, the left back is responsible for one question or the centre back second question or the one of the strikers and the questions are in the second half, what do we stop doing?

In the second half, what do we start doing? In the second half, what do we continue to continue doing? Start, SS and C.

Mark Carroll (: 36:05

Okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 36:06

And the coaches have got the same framework. So they're next door, or in the dugout, or whatever, they're in the showers, whatever they're, because obviously the coaches are leaving the players alone, right, for the planes to land. And then at least, although I can't tell you that, you know, both sides might, you know, disagree what the answers are, but at least they're discussing the same questions.

Mark Carroll (: 36:17

Hmm.

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 36:29

And we thought that but that needs practice, including a training.

Mark Carroll (: 36:35

Mm-hmm. Mm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 36:36

But when it does work, it increases players' voices definitely, players say more. And you can make a strong argument that that then makes a meal more connected, more relatedness, and more or less anxiety. There's probably good, you know.

Mark Carroll (: 36:49

And is that an implicit or explicit framework in the sense of like, we noted it, you know, just earlier on the conversation, we would give that example of, we'll set some targets and then maybe at halftime we're showing players maybe in using green, amber, red, how well they're meeting the targets. So, but we are bounding the, we're directing the conversation through the learning. Sometimes it's learning outcomes if it's an anybody developmental coaching setting, other times it's a performance benchmark.

you know, because it's in a performance focused, you know, it's senior sport perhaps. Is that a framework that we, do we drive the outcomes that we've set using the stop, start, continue, or do we frame the conversation around stop, start, continue for more organic conversation that we then lead back? Look, to be honest, I think this is a, that's probably, maybe it's a daft question to ask actually, I mean, I could imagine your answer is it depends on what the coach is looking for. But I just wonder how implicit or explicit, maybe that's a bit of just.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 37:44

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 37:47

going back to that fundamentally, what leads what.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 37:50

Yeah, I think it's explicit. again, it's going back to what I've learned, again, the learning is the hard way is to change people behaviors and realize you need to work out first of all, do we think there's a problem here?

because, and there may not be, right? People might be, players might be happy with what's going on, although research does not suggest that's the case. We find coaches are frustrated at halftime, know, instructions aren't followed. You know, there's just, but I think if you can scale it down to a question, to a problem, maybe the problem is, okay, players are too quiet. You know, I think once you frame,

once you put it down in writing, this is a problem, can then the solutions from there flow much better. And then also implementation happens much better.

Mark Carroll (: 38:33

Hmm, okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 38:34

because you're

really, you know, we're not just changing because, I listen to some odd weird guy on a podcast, first thing I see the coach is, you have an honest, you know, think to yourself, ask your players, is there a problem? And it may not be a problem, in which case continue as you are.

Mark Carroll (: 38:47

Does that maybe fit with what is the role of compliments, positive reinforcement in a team talk? Because it's often as sometimes seen as a deficit view scenario where here's all the things we need to keep working at. But I do wonder from just your time of being in a lot of different dressing rooms, how much is the role of actually confidence driving comments? How much are you seeing that valued or maybe not valued enough because of this deficit view that we often take as coaches?

Because I think that's that element of is that a strength based approach to coaching in terms of what we already are doing well and work out from there or does it always need to be that deficit view?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 39:15

Yeah.

generally see the feedback coaches give in football. I think our numbers are 83 % negative feedback, roughly.

Mark Carroll (: 39:35

Okay, yeah.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 39:37

Like you think of a clip, right? Normally in the Tom and it's two clips. They're nearly always about something not going well.

And I actually had a debate we had in Leeds last week and actually we came up in discussion.

And again, nobody's gonna like this, but I wonder, can you have a situation where, you know, clipping games just so the good stuff, because the players are well aware of what they've done wrong, or at least they should be. And if they are aware, then what is the value of showing in a video or a saying in words? what, what are you trying to achieve doing that?

Mark Carroll (: 40:10

Hmm. It's like watching for the sideline, isn't it? And saying, well, you shouldn't have played that pass there. And it's like, they know.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 40:12

recording.

Yeah. So I think, yeah, again, just getting coaches me to look at the ratio of positive to negative, you know, words. And it's.

Mark Carroll (: 40:29

Could I play devil's advocate here? I'm just curious to know your thoughts on this. I see there's so much merit here in thinking about how we can be more succinct, more concise, more supportive. Is there sometimes the risk of confusing direction and instruction?

Sometimes unfairly with the negatives because sometimes I wonder like players, so players react in its way to Zed, know, instruction. But sometimes I wonder is it, is that a problem perhaps with the players and the coaches involved in this, coach foster an environment and they help foster mindset. But I often wonder is where you see breakdowns between what a coach has said and how a player responds sometimes.

It can just be that there's more work to be done with how the player approaches conversations. Because often, a lot of coaches might be listening to this and they say, know what, sometimes I need to tell them things. Sometimes there needs to be a very prescriptive verbal approach here. Sometimes I need to teach them things that they don't know and they need to hear. Now again, maybe there's another conversation there, is the match day the best time to do that? It would depend on the context, I suppose.

But that's then a situation where it's about the player recognising how to take on feedback and recognising how to, you I know that maybe that's sometimes like, is that healthy? Is it actually, we maybe getting players to think more about how they just succumb to the expectation of an environment rather than changing the environment? I get that. But like, there is a tension, isn't there, I think that's quite fair to say there as well around.

because I do wonder if we're getting into a culture where coaches are almost discouraged from coaching to a degree. And I know this is about, are we challenging what coaching means and what coaching looks like, which is absolutely a really valid, interesting thing to say. But I do wonder around that tension. And it comes back to, again, the difference between control and structure. We're not trying to control everything, but we do need to structure an environment so the players have capacity to do well in it.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 42:18

you

Mark Carroll (: 42:39

And again, I know all the stuff that you're suggesting is towards that structured environment, but I just, what would you say to that? And please tell me what I'm probably being ignorant of things in here. That might be representative of what other people might respond to sometimes when they hear a lot about what coaches need to do as facilitators of knowledge, even though they are experts in their own right of knowledge. I'm just to know your thoughts on some of that.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 43:05

I don't know. I'll be honest. I don't know. I think it's an interesting... I don't know.

Mark Carroll (: 43:11

Cause

it is, is interesting. And I know it's a problematic area that I think, and I don't think there is a, right, we need to do this one thing now. I think there is always going to be attention there. And what I love, Amy, actually, is that you're, what you're presenting is like, be conscious of this other stuff and these other things. And, you know, and I don't think it's about necessarily telling coaches to give up on some more traditional methods. It seems like this is a real blending of approach to just consider other ways of reaching more people at the one time and to try things, isn't it?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 43:39

You know,

other ways, easy win for coaches video their halftime experience. what and in fact, again, this sounds probably cocky, but we only work with a team with a manager until they've confirmed they've watched back one of their own half times.

Mark Carroll (: 43:45

okay, yeah.

Okay.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 43:58

because you will know why that's the case.

Mark Carroll (: 44:01

So for the benefit of us, why would you, obviously there's gonna be a real humility to come from that often, isn't there? There's a real self-awareness that comes out of that.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 44:06

You mean yeah, just ready to look in the mirror. I often say if you

got kids get your kids get feedback on it.

Mark Carroll (: 44:16

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 44:17

They'll tell you exactly what they see.

Mark Carroll (: 44:18

probably surprised a lot of coaches isn't it, they actually listen to themselves as to what they say, their mannerisms, maybe they, yeah.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 44:25

Yeah, and it's tough, right?

We are programmed not to the sound of our own voice, we? There's a primeval reason for that. So we're just not in the mood to like the sound of our own voice. But yeah, it's worth it. And also, think we found good... You say the players, look at it, I'm videoing my half time here tonight because I want to get better. Because I'm asking you to get better. I'm just doing the same.

Mark Carroll (: 44:42

Hmm.

Coach education, partly to blame a little bit for where you maybe you've had to, you your job is to help correct behaviors that are maybe inefficient. And I would wonder, coach education is always telling coaches about how they can increase their knowledge about the game. But I think what's came out here is that you really see coaching as a relational act of how we manage people. And it's interesting because I wonder where that...

where the trigger for wanting to say more things probably is an artifact of coach education that is very much about things to say versus like the practices that you do. And this is why I just, I'm such an advocate of these sorts of exercises. And I think the fact that we've got independent coach educators like yourself, Amy, is just such a benefit to the whole set. That is that, you know, just that exercise alone of watching yourself to then consider like body language.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 45:20

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 45:39

Who are you normally giving that contact to? Who are you normally talking to? Who do you normally don't talk to? What's the reception to that? All that stuff seems so important because it's a relational act, isn't it?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 45:49

Yeah, it's, it's a lot of coaches, just, you know, when we go match day, often I want to give them a hug because they, I don't know if it's fear. I give coaches three maybe tips to kind of emotional regulations. had a match with an event last week at the university. I was just doing analysis of the workshops and number one issue came up was emotional regulation, players and managers. And so

Mark Carroll (: 46:16

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 46:19

I recommend that coaches eat something at half time.

Mark Carroll (: 46:22

Mm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 46:23

something called ego depletion will likely happen to you as a coach during a game which basically means your sugar levels collapse eat something, realise that people slow down your heart rate has to you know your breathing has to be non-normalised to be able to swallow eat something secondly is to yeah just take if you can like when the whistle goes just to have when you walk back to the dressing room or the kind of coaching room just do that really slowly

Mark Carroll (: 46:31

All right.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 46:52

purposely. And the third thing which I got from Greg, Greg Lincoln, who's the under 16 England manager, before he goes into the dressing room, he opens his phone, and he's got a picture of his family on the screensaver. He looks at that for five seconds.

Mark Carroll (: 46:53

Mmm.

Okay, yeah

EAMON DEVLIN (: 47:06

And he goes,

and actually looks at it, he recognises the camera's kids' names, the colour of the kids' eyes and his wife's name, so that's important. And then he goes and speaks.

Mark Carroll (: 47:18

Hmm

and it sounds like you are This sounds like this sounds like coaches own psychology here, isn't it as well? And that like these coaches are performers to isn't it? We don't recognize that and it's just you're almost talking here about coaches own landing zone How do they land themself? That's incredible. I It's really interesting

EAMON DEVLIN (: 47:35

Yeah, yeah. The analogy

we try to use with, we've got a running job with us, we have a, in our business, have coaches we work with after a period of time and get an owl, not an actual owl, but like a toy owl. And the analogy is, on match day, be like an owl. Ideally you sit up high with,

Mark Carroll (: 47:50

Hehehe.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 47:59

most managers don't agree with me because of the cameras. Watch, know, listen. And then when you get hungry, your eyes open, you swoop in, make an impact, kill, leave. That's what we recommend at halftime. You go into the dressing room, you're in there for maybe one to three minutes and you leave. But you have to be very still before that, because this is your performance. You've got two minutes to perform.

Mark Carroll (: 48:28

Hmm

EAMON DEVLIN (: 48:29

as opposed to

death by nine minutes or 10 minutes. I don't mean death, you know what mean? It's unstructured and it loses impact. Our team now goes into teams now, Mark, on game day, we do a full review of people's game day communications. So it's our job, right, to take notes in half times and pre-games. Often we're we're going, what just happened there?

Mark Carroll (: 48:34

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 48:53

and we've got a pen

and paper and it's our job, we're getting paid to do this. So that died even earlier. yeah, still observant. And then when you swoop in, you make your hit effectively.

Mark Carroll (: 48:56

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I wonder if we could, well actually, before we do, I'm curious to know a little bit about the pre and post match one, but just, was something you picked up on earlier on that was around, and I think you kind of brought it back into the frame when you suggested around exercise or observing yourself and recording yourself. When you mentioned aiming around what you wear, can you tell us a little bit about that? I just think that's really interesting. just wanted, what does that?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 49:37

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 49:38

Just there's obviously like people take a sense around style of clothing and what the style of clothing is communicating or does it help bring people closer? this a case of the track suit coach who's arm in arm with the player or the suit coach who's seen as a bit more of a, you know, there's a bit of a separation there of what are you getting at when you speak to that?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 49:57

Yeah so

there is research, can't remember the name of the by the way I'm in Headlandly cricket ground, it's where my hotel is and now they're cutting grass so that's annoying. So they, what do they do? So yeah they're research, actually more than one piece, they're doing one done by Portsmouth University.

Mark Carroll (: 50:06

Off the world, man.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 50:17

which basically looked at perception, how players perceive you, putting what you wear. On high level, it's if you wear a suit, stroke, smart casual, players see you as more strategically powerful. If you wear a tracksuit and you're in good shape, people see you as more tactically aware.

Mark Carroll (: 50:31

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 50:37

If you're not in the best shape wearing a tracksuit, I'll let you decide what the reception is.

Mark Carroll (: 50:44

Okay, I've also you also see the managers that are sort of a You pep gaudiola is or I think about Vincent company of watching the television last night. They're sort of a slight smart casual They look like they're kind of it's like a project manager. You may call it that I've seen some research. Can I donate them is that

EAMON DEVLIN (: 50:56

Yeah.

Yeah, and actually, we did a project for a team recently on colors, it or not. our team came across, I think it was Max actually came across in our team, that if you wear black, let's say your team wears black, black shorts, black jerseys, your team would be more aggressive when you wear black.

and the referee is slightly more likely to card you if you are black.

and course water managers in the premise of World of Games.

Mark Carroll (: 51:31

yeah. Totally black. Yep.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 51:33

So I don't

know, black is the right color. We haven't worked out what is the right color, by the way. happy to, somebody out, somebody that the coaches know. So yeah, so that's, the other thing with what you wear is when, being in sort of, know, bigger groups where you've got big, big back room or big managing team, big staff, I think you'd make a strong case that the head, the manager should wear something different because when the players look up, they should know who's in charge.

Mark Carroll (: 51:37

yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So there is a bit of a separation almost, explicit separation of role when you see managers who are dressed differently from maybe their assistant coach. Could I challenge you to consider or help me understand, let's say, I know often a lot of work you do, I mean, elite clubs and elite teams, but we have a lot of coaches who listen who are within a grassroot space.

And I think everything we've mentioned up until now is fairly transferable in so far as just like understanding about the messaging that you make and some of the other small things that you can do in terms of tips to help with your own landing space, but also the players. But when it comes to like what you wear or these sorts of things, how easily can that be sort of taken forward? Maybe it can to a degree, but I always think about an academy coach who's told what to wear.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 52:50

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 52:50

or

a grassroots coach who's just taking their kids team, wonder, or should they be caring about this as well? Because I often wonder, that really a priority for them as well?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 52:56

No, I...

Yeah, I don't think that's that.

I just think he's looked smart though. No matter what you just look smart. Doesn't like you know if it's it's club gear, know shoes are nice. I think that still matters because again going back to players. What do we got? We got five senses. And we take in is 11 million bits of information every second. 10 of those of 11 millions through our eyes.

Mark Carroll (: 53:03

No.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 53:21

So no, don't, I think there are other things for, you know, grassroot coaches can be considered before that. Like just a video themselves, how long they're speaking for, get the players, get their views. Do they like halftime currently? Guys, girls, you know, what do you like, dislike? And the courage to be vulnerable and go, is this working?

Mark Carroll (: 53:38

Yeah.

And I would wonder, see, what you mentioned around also come back to getting the players input, that it doesn't, I don't think that this, I don't think you're suggesting that it needs to necessarily be wholesale changes, doesn't it not? Like, cause the players might ask for a small thing and if you even, is there often sometimes a lot of value to just showing the intention to include players? So I would wonder if the players, you take feedback from players that they mention one thing about the halftime team talk, maybe,

They don't need to hear messaging from everyone. If you just act on that one thing, and I think for a lot of the coaches that are listening, sometimes it's easier to act on one thing than it is to make massive changes, particularly where sometimes it stands beyond their realm of control, because often time coaches are working under the structure of someone bigger, and they may not always get equal buy into that sort of approach. So this isn't actually a protocol that has to be taken in its entirety, isn't it not? It's actually just.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 54:20

Yes.

Mark Carroll (: 54:38

It's about the merit of what you could change slowly over time and play about with it.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 54:44

Yeah, we're just getting progress out of affection and you know, if you're mid season, you you're starting to argue, do not make many changes frankly mid season. But yeah, slowly, which is why we don't have a, you know, we haven't got as a shiny, we've got some principles that we'll hopefully discuss them, but we haven't got a kind of shiny, this is the one guy's you should do it because well, I think it depends on the environment. You know, that's full of, I think it's a lazy set of answers, but I it does depend on the environment. on what the coach wants to achieve.

Mark Carroll (: 55:07

No, no.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 55:10

And all we're just trying to do is just ask questions, quote some questions like, know, if you've got a changing room, who's in the changing room? Why are in the changing room? That's a massive one.

Mark Carroll (: 55:17

And when

you mentioned that around, like, maybe don't change it midway through a season. So the timing seems to obviously be important. I would wonder, yet often, you know, I think the obvious response during the season, but if it's right in the middle of a competition period, but it's just, we want automaticity, don't we? We don't necessarily want players to need to overthink and change things in a time where they're already labored with other thoughts and expectations and performance.

Is there any other contextual moments in so far as timing of a season or even in terms of familiarity with a group? I wonder, could it be more, how do I as a coach come and work with new players and consider how maybe I approach conversations at that time because there's a whole lot of building credibility in front of people. Also, we could be talking about developmental coaches where,

you know, and I've worked often in a lot of academies where part of our curriculum is about exposing players to different things and their learning journey at different times, where, you know, we don't care about the result one week, but then we have a teaser, you have a game where we put it to the players that we do care about the result, and it's, you know, for the learning reason, there could equally be times, as you can imagine, even in a developmental context, where we have a player-led week, but again, you know, different contexts allow for different times.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 56:32

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 56:36

different things at different times. So, just to speak a little bit more to that, outside of the in the middle of competition period, we want to change anything. Is there any other times where you think it might be opportune to do things or maybe something we need to consider or just apply attention to?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 56:50

Well, in our work, generally, in terms of breaks, you're pretty busy for us, because coaches have bit more time to kind of look at stuff like this. There's really three things I can think of. One is, I think when a new player comes in, a possible question to ask that player or any of your players is, what do you need from me on game day?

I know one coach, Andy Friend, might know him too, rugby coach, very good by the way, really, I've stolen most of his anything, if I ever sign remotely sort of intelligence from him, he, yeah, he, I always ask this player at beginning of season, what do need from me on game day? And some would say, ignore me, leave me. Some would say like, yeah, I need a hug. Others would say, I need need, I need the, you know, the backup. But that's one. Second.

Mark Carroll (: 57:18

You

EAMON DEVLIN (: 57:35

is just making changes, not making too many at all at once. Although I do feel football coaches, but the academy, because when a coach is not, it's almost like a sort of culture that they've gotta be barking at players, otherwise you don't care.

Mark Carroll (: 57:54

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 57:56

Whereas you can argue the opposite is more true.

Mark Carroll (: 57:59

Hmm. I did wonder that just like the culture of football versus rugby is just, it's not like, as one example, it's totally different. The rugby coach often is very much separated even during the game time. So there's a lot of players are new, perhaps the leading things are self-regulating to some degree. So that halftime talk can be more, maybe there's more reason for different ways of talking about the football. It has its own little sort of microcosm, isn't it? It's sort of, you know, it's its own little realm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 58:27

Yeah, I I'm looking at it. I'm still new to football, so it's a lot to learn and realise. But interestingly, we have an index on where we grade different levels of communication, like pre-game, in-game, half-time. And interestingly, no football team has yet got to the highest level of our grade.

But some, I go?

Mark Carroll (: 58:45

But does that,

yeah. No, no, no, sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. No, no, don't want to take away your flow.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 58:50

No, that was it really.

Mark Carroll (: 58:52

Yeah, but there is obviously very successful football teams. So I was wondering, how much do they need to meet the index? Or should I wish conscious of like, also you work across sports. So I suppose coaches can always improve anyway, but is that, are you still seeing teams who are high performing in football who are maybe,

not maybe three quarters of the way up that in debt scale. And does that maybe suggest about the limitations of football as a culture, perhaps towards athlete centered coaching, I wonder, because I often wonder, is every sport the same? And can we could be ranked sports in that respect? So it sounds like maybe an impediment to fulfilling maybe the potential in this space of relational and tactical, you know, presentation half time.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 59:19

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 59:44

We are constrained, aren't we? Because that maybe brings us onto actually, I know that you have a model around the constraint-led approach and you consider aspects of ecological dynamics where we talk about how we interact with our environment and culture as a constraint. And I just wonder, has that been part and parcel of maybe the challenges you've experienced when working with football and comparing that to elsewhere? But you do still see success in it, but it's it's constrained in its own right, isn't it?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:00:09

Yeah, it's very

good. again, I don't know if I can easy so but there is definitely. I think I think I think I made the mistake that, you my head to the idealistic world where, you know, because I thought the outcome of the way is that the coast says nothing at halftime. And I still believe that, by the way, personally. I think that's that's and then and but I've realized that. OK.

sure that's gonna happen to football, Eamonn. Maybe it doesn't need to, maybe it shouldn't, right? So again, maybe it's my lack of understanding of football, perhaps. Probably definite is an issue there. There is, it really goes back to what your purpose is, why you're there, what is the purpose of half time? Who is it for that day? I think, you know, do you want players to sort of lead? I just think the most high performing environments I've seen are the ones where the players basically drive the bus on game day.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:01

Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:01:01

know,

pre-game meetings, players to drive. I was in Ireland two weeks ago with the Gaelic team. The players on the dance floor in the hotel where they met before, they did all the kick-out strategies themselves, not a coach said a word.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:12

Mmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:01:13

Half time again, players can let it. And I don't know, that just feels to me high performing. Because ultimately, we're talking about invasion games where it's making, how many decisions made on a little pitch in a game of two, two, two, three thousand decisions made.

Mark Carroll (: 1:01:24

Hmm.

Hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:01:37

and who's making those decisions and the team that makes the more decisions better and execs better usually ends up winning. So I just find it very, still very odd that we have a situation where in a game we have the hand control of the game over to players. Then in some cultures at halftime, we basically, the coaches just take control off the players of the game and then go, by the way guys, there's the whistle. You've got, you're in charge again.

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:02

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:02:03

It does not sit, and I can't believe I got research back up. It doesn't sit easy with me. I don't know what you think, Mark.

Mark Carroll (: 1:02:09

Hmm.

No, I just think that sort of perspective, I think it's a testament to the utility of having like voices like yourself, Amy, because what you say about trying to understand football and actually it's interesting you mentioned that. I had a conversation with Tom Hartley who in a recent episode who's transferred sport from coaching football to motorsport and he mentioned around sort of being that alien outlook.

of coming into somewhere and disrupting the scheme of the way people think and how they act. I think that football, where these changes happen is entirely in the way we might envision. think just having that disruption and some of the perspective you think you bring is so unique in that regards. mean, I think football can only benefit from moving somewhere. doesn't mean you move entirely and shift to being a different sport and maybe it can't ever fully do that.

you know, just because the unique realities of different people that play the sport versus other sports, different actors, different market incentives. Football is a, without getting over the political, it's an extremely capitalistic sort of space because of the potential to earn the people involved. That's entirely different sometimes from other sports. So just the uniqueness of, you know, that in itself isn't always something that can be changed, but you can shift and you can...

There's still an amalgability to it and I just think that what you're offering is so incredibly useful for that reason to the purpose it serves. One final question I did have, I think there was other questions we maybe haven't managed to cover but maybe we could have another, maybe it's for another conversation at a time. so much to what you do and it goes out to so many areas that I just think it's superb. I did want to ask you at the very, end, well there's two questions, there's one after us but very, very.

Briefly if you can tell us what is the current landscape in so far as research in this space? I know obviously through your business and your company and the work that you've been doing as a consultant in this area working with lots of big teams across the world you've done sort of your own sort of bespoke research and Now obviously you're actually studying towards your PhD it leads back at currently in this area which is really exciting but what is the Scientific landscape on this so far and so far as work that's been done. Is this a growing area as there's some work?

prior, it just needs to be repurposed. What's the lie of the land?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:04:30

very light so there are only nine published papers on half times in the world and that concludes all sports

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:38

Geez, no, so that really isn't as unvinty. Yeah, so it could be an area that's really apt then for disruption and growth.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:04:46

And most of the research is from the coaches view.

Mark Carroll (: 1:04:48

okay. Yeah.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:04:49

So my first,

which I'm trying to get published, which is in Gaelic football, which is on basically asking players what they think about halftime. so yeah, there is, if anybody's got an interest in doing, we'll reach, but whether you could do, there's a lot more research could be done. And if anybody has an interest in doing, please reach out, because we've got a stack of ideas and projects, people would make, we think interesting projects, we can't do them all. Halftime is a...

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:13

Hmm

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:05:15

John Lyle, he's one of my supervisors, know, Professor John Lyle, for my interview with my PhD says the problem with this is, it's too interesting. I'll never forget that.

Mark Carroll (: 1:05:24

I thought it was true. And you know what I mean? has, so obviously this isn't necessarily linked to halftime specific work, but where we've seen comparisons between perceptions of the coach creating motivation environment, this is more in terms of my own area, and we've seen that they've compared coach perceptions to player perceptions. They actually don't always contrast in the way people always assume or that players think totally differently. They're actually have been fairly similar, but coaches often just...

judge themselves just a little bit more favorably than what the players do, which, you know, and I've always been a big believer, I think you need more stakeholder voices. The coach is also important in that respect too, but because I think when you understand if influences on behavior, everyone's influenced by something. The players are influenced by the coach, but the coach is probably influenced by the players or the coach is influenced by other stakeholders who are responsible. But it shows how, you know, it being such a novel space, there's probably a real window of opportunity here for us to, and for you and your work.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:05:54

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:06:20

I should imagine aiming to build a framework that isn't polluted yet. had, know, through just I think over time when we have too many of one finding, people just want to reinforce that thought. Whereas the fact that you're bringing a new way, a new field of study, to be honest, to the floor here in some respects alongside other colleagues, obviously, who have maybe contributed to the other papers, there's a real

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:06:36

Yeah.

Mark Carroll (: 1:06:47

opportunity there to develop the science behind us in a way that's really unique and contemporary and modern. I think that's really interesting for those that are listening. This is great, Eamonn. So just to round it off, I'm conscious of your time and really appreciate the time that you've given us, Eamonn. I tried to, we've got a new feature here, I suppose, in the podcast. We're trying to just help the coaches pick up and take away some coach hats.

So if I was to challenge you based on maybe what we've spoken about so far to summarize it and maybe three main tips that you would give for managing a halftime talk or maybe even also just other talks pre-post whatever where you feel there's transferable benefit, what would they be for us and for those that are listening?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:07:28

Number one is to try to limit your words to 60 seconds. Half time.

Number two is don't let your players get cold at halftime.

So having a reactivation at the end of the halftime mix gets very good sense. And thirdly is to realize there's a lot you don't control on match day, including many ways halftime. So try to enjoy it more coaches.

Mark Carroll (: 1:07:56

No, superb. I mean, thanks so much for giving us time today. And obviously there's so much more that we could speak about from all the other aspects of the work that you do. for those that are listening, and I'll certainly be part of it, who want to maybe follow up on this conversation or find out more about your services and some of the resources that you have available, where would they go?

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:08:01

I'll see you.

Yeah, if you sort of Google my ugly name, so Eamon Devlin, Minute Nine, we've got a website, but we've got some, we've got some research on there, some resources. I'm on LinkedIn as well, if you can face reading my LinkedIn posts. That's probably it actually, yeah. I still stop using Twitter, but yeah, so LinkedIn and the website.

Mark Carroll (: 1:08:38

Brilliant, excellent. No thanks, thanks so much again, Eamon. It's just been terrific having you on. And thank you to those that were listening. I hope the conversation's been nearly as interesting to you as it has been to me. So yeah, I will see everyone next time. So thank you, Eamon. Thank you, and I will see you soon, guys. Thank you, bye bye.

EAMON DEVLIN (: 1:08:54

Yeah, great. Thanks, Mark.